death penalty?

[I Am Blessed 24]

I see no conflict in witnessing to prisoners and supporting the death penalty.

Exactly! Thank you, Marcia.

So you see, they PAY FOR NOTHING, NOT EVEN THEIR CRIME.

They pay with the dearest thing there is - their freedom.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ecclesiates 3:1-10

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. 9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth? 10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Magnetic Poles said:

Is the death penalty a deterrent? I don't think so. Texas executes so often that if it were, you'd think there would be little to no murder in that state. Sadly, it isn't true. Murders are typically crimes of passion. The perpetrator doesn't stop to think, "Hmmm...if I kill, I might be executed."

Crimes of passion?

Below are the specifics on what constitutes a capital offense (one punishible by death) in Texas:


In Texas, the district courts have original jurisdiction for all criminal felony cases. If an individual is convicted of a capital felony, he or she may be subject to punishment by death, if the State sought such punishment. A capital felony is one in which an individual "intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual," under special circumstances. In particular, the: murder of a public safety officer, firefighter, or correctional employee;
murder during the commission of specified felonies (kidnapping, burglary, robbery, aggravated rape, arson);
murder for remuneration; multiple murders;
murder during prison escape; murder of a correctional officer;
murder by a state prison inmate who is serving a life sentence for any of five offenses; [or]
murder of an individual under six years of age1.
In Texas, a person must be of at least 17 years of age at the time of the crime to have the death penalty imposed upon him or her2. After the verdict is rendered, if the defendant is found guilty, the case is automatically appealed to the Court of Criminal Appeals3.

http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/vlibrary/outlines/deathpen.html
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A crime of passion is defined as follows:

A defendant's excuse for committing a crime due to sudden anger or heartbreak, in order to eliminate the element of "premeditation." This usually arises in murder or attempted murder cases, when a spouse or sweetheart finds his/her "beloved" having sexual intercourse with another and shoots or stabs one or both of the coupled pair. To make this claim the defendant must have acted immediately upon the rise of passion, without the time for contemplation or allowing for "a cooling of the blood." It is sometimes called the "Law of Texas" since juries in that state are supposedly lenient to cuckolded lovers who wreak their own vengeance. The benefit of eliminating premeditation is to lessen the provable homicide to manslaughter with no death penalty and limited prison terms. An emotionally charged jury may even acquit the impassioned defendant.

http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=401&bold=||||


Crimes of passion carry different penalties than premeditated capital murder.

Murderers on death row are most assuredly not there because they committed a crime of passion. They knew the possible consequences of their actions, and they chose to go out and committ crimes in Texas and murder someone in the process. Now they face Texas Justice.

 

[gb93433]

Not to challenge you, but, do you, or any of your friends, have some statistics to show the ratio of those innocent but executed versus those who were truly guilty and executed ?

That is why there is a long drawn out system of appeals, I think. To provide those sentenced to death the opportunity to be heard by higher courts, and the evidence against them reviewed, and the sentence commuted or overturned if needed.

On the investigative level, I think that to avoid execution of innocent persons, if it is proven during appeals, or if it turns out after the fact of execution, that the convict was innocent, then repercussions ought to be felt all the way down to the investigating officer and all the way up to the prosecution.

Fire them, deny them retirement benefits, strip them of all honors, and then send them to jail: FOR LIFE without the possibility of parole.

That ought to stop fabrication of evidence, or personal motives, or sloppy detective work.

I don’t now if my friend has any statistics or not. I have never asked him. I feel as though one wrong execution is one too many.

I asked some of the same issues you have raised and he response was in a number of words that the judicial system is a good ol’ boy system. He tries cases where the person did not get a fair trial. In some of the cases he has told me about the lawyer representing the accused is half drunk when he came to court and did not put but very little effort into the case because the fee is little given to the lawyer by the state.

The things you have mentioned are many of the same things I have discussed with my friend. His response and mine are much the same as yours. But who would take the case. It would be a case against another lawyer.

We have the same problem among Baptists. When was the last time you heard a pastor speak out against another. I was pastoring a church in AZ and I found out from a man who I later found out lived there about 25 years earlier that the church had a practice of inviting the Mormon bishop to come and preach. A lady came to my home and told me that was the case as well. The deacons tried to tel me they believed the Mormon Bishop was a Christian. One of those deacons was on the church growth board of the state SBC of AZ. It was an SBC church. When push came to shove I asked for help and the those I asked told me just to leave quietly and there was nothing they could do because it was an autonomous church. The SBC accepted their money but did nothing against them in their heretical practice. I even wrote a former president of the SBC and he told me just to leave. I spoke with a state leader in the SBC and he told me just to leave. Another state leader told me he was aware of it for many years. Doesn’t that seem like something is wrong when a convention will accept a church’s money and claim to believe the Bible yet do not do as scripture says. They allowed the church to accept false teachers and continued to accept their money at the same time. Make sense? Others have asked me in response about what could have been done. The leaders in the state, local and national convention could have stopped accepting money from them and disfellowshiped them if they did not stop. I was able to get them to stop but at quite a high price.

I am a firm believer that we ought to clean our own house first. Who are we to tell the world what to do when we cannot rule ourselves and clean our own house first. People read about that kind of garbage in the newspaper and hear it on the news all the time. A few years ago the BFA scandal hit the national news over quite a long period of time. When some of the pastors tried to expose the wrongdoing the state SBC instead of considering the allegations just attempted to silence the critics. Having been in business working for a very large which was much bigger than the BFA led me to believe when I met some of the men for the first time that something was wrong. I went to a pastor friend of mine who was there and we discussed it. I went back to the chruch I was pastoring and told the deacons they needed to pul the church’s money out of the BFA. They did not like what they heard. Six months later the deacons were embarrassed by their negligence. The church lost all of its money except $3,000 which was in a local bank.

When some of the trustees admitted lying when Dr. Dilday was fired at SWBTS why were they not fired? Why did the SBC not come against them? Why did the trustees offer him hush money? If they had nothing to hide why would that even ben considered?

The fox needs to quit guarding the hen house.

 

[gb93433]

Now they face Texas Justice.

Why is crime so high in Houston?

Are you aware that some of the highest awards in workers compensation cases are in Texas? Sometime get a price on workmans compensation in Texas and then compare that to other states.

Texas is one of the few states which hasd a trial by jury in thsoe cases. Many other states have an arbitration board which settles those cases.

Texas is a good place to steal if you like to beat the court system through workers comp by faking injuries. In one situation wheer I worked we hired a private detective on a case because we were waiting for the hammer to fall. The setup looked good, but we were ready when the time came.

 

[deacon jd]

(Romans 13:3-4) For rulers are not a terror to good works,but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 

[webdog]

Why is crime so high in Houston?

Are you aware that some of the highest awards in workers compensation cases are in Texas? Sometime get a price on workmans compensation in Texas and then compare that to other states.

Texas is one of the few states which hasd a trial by jury in thsoe cases. Many other states have an arbitration board which settles those cases.

Texas is a good place to steal if you like to beat the court system through workers comp by faking injuries. In one situation wheer I worked we hired a private detective on a case because we were waiting for the hammer to fall. The setup looked good, but we were ready when the time came.

It's foolish to equate workers comp with stealing, and "beating the court system". Check out the trades in Texas compared to ..... Rhode Island and you will understand why the incidents are so high. Having a jury is the only fair way to do it in Texas, and the single arbitrator would rule in favor of the state due to the sheer number of cases.

 

[gekko]

dont take life into your own hands - if a person deserves death - God will take care of it.

in the meantime - put 'im behind bars - its all we can do.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

gekko, can we tell the government that you will pay to keep 'em behind bars rather than execute them?

It is the american citizen who is paying to keep killers alive. Is that justice?

 

[Revmitchell]

dont take life into your own hands - if a person deserves death - God will take care of it.

in the meantime - put 'im behind bars - its all we can do.

Ecclesiates 3:1-10

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. 9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth? 10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

 

[webdog]

gekko, can we tell the government that you will pay to keep 'em behind bars rather than execute them?

It is the american citizen who is paying to keep killers alive. Is that justice?

They should tax those who are against the death penalty to keep killers alive. Maybe they can have a box to check on your tax form or something.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

webdog,

You may be onto something there. Tax those who believe in keeping the killers alive.

Wonder how they would feel if it were a family member that was killed? Would their position stay the same?

sfiC's cousin was killed and had no weapon in her hand or on her body, yet the defense is shouting 'self-defense'. How much of a threat is a 6 month pregnant woman who has no weapon in her hand?

Papers said she just went to neighbor's house so she could retrieve her purse out of the neighbor's car.

I am sorry, but there was no self defense involved. It is downright murder. And whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed.'

Capital Punishment.
\
Witness to the killer, give her a chance to accept Christ, and let the state do what is just to the physical body.

 

[pinoybaptist]

dont take life into your own hands - if a person deserves death - God will take care of it.

in the meantime - put 'im behind bars - its all we can do.

And God has already shown us an example of how to cleanse society.
Put to death those who deserve death.

I'm just curious. Suppose bin Laden is captured. What are we going to do with him ? Feed him ? Give him lawyers, and pay for these lawyers, who could turn out to be brilliant, they could get him off the hook ? Put him in prison, feed him, treat him like a baby, with free doctors and free medicines while at the meantime he keeps spouting out his poison from his cell, to the glee of sensation seeking media, all at the expense of taxpayers ?

What about the guy who's in charge of the Taliban resistance in Afghanistan at this time, who is so vicious even his own men are afraid of him, so ruthless that his Mullah had to relieve him of his command at one time ?

 

[Bro Tony]

Not to hijack this thread but I think this could fit. If it is wrong for a Christian to be for the death penalty, wouldn't it also be wrong for a Christian to serve in the Armed Forces and kill the enemy? I think I will start a new thread....

Bro Tony
(One who proudly served in the US Army)

 

[canadyjd]

But Paul was not a convicted murderer. He participated in the executions under Jewish law, apparently, and even though he was killing believers, it was not murder in the eyes of the law or he would have been imprisoned.

How can we apply this passage if it pertains to convicted murderers? You believe it means to not execute them, but then what do we do with Gen 9.6 and the other passages I mentioned? I see no conflict in witnessing to prisoners and supporting the death penalty. No one is going to be executed before he is saved, if God wants him saved.

In fact, I believe it is against the sanctity of life to be opposed to the death penalty, according to the Lord's statement in Gen 9.6.

It was certainly murder in the eyes of God, and Paul as well. I have addressed the passages you have mentioned, showing you that the context does not demand Christians support the death of anyone.

I know God can save anyone, anytime He choses to do so. He can also take a person's life, anytime He wants to.

This is not about the murderer. This is about us, as Christians, and the attitudes we have toward sinners, even the worst of sinners.

How can we, who were once enslaved to sin and have now been set free by the love of Almighty God, support the death of anyone enslaved by sin. And if they are saved, how can one Christian support the death of another Christian?

I Thess. 5:15 "See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all men."

How can you obey the command of God to seek after the good of "all men" and support the death of anyone?

peace to youraying:

 

[Marcia]

I know you are using scripture (which I do not think support your view) but I think your appeal here is mainly emotional.

Christians can have an attitude of love towards a sinner who happens to be under the death penalty but that does not mean they must advocate or believe that the death penalty be removed. The death penalty is the consequence, put in motion by God Himself, for murder.

And as I said previously, God's value of the sanctity of life (i.e., the image of God in man) is so high that he instituted the death penalty for the attack on that image.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Ecclesiates 3:1-10

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. 9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth? 10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

I see you have highlighted three things you hold dear; death, hatred and war.

 

[gekko]

Ecclesiates 3:1-10

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. 9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth? 10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

mmhmm.. there is a time to kill... when is that time... when God allows it.

does God allow us to kill? what are our motives?
if our motives are like those of rahab in saving the spies - then those are the right motives. otherwise - dont kill.

gekko, can we tell the government that you will pay to keep 'em behind bars rather than execute them?

It is the american citizen who is paying to keep killers alive. Is that justice?

you work - and make money - God provides - dont complain about taxes- why? cause they'll always be there. so live with it. c'est la vie.
---

the wages of sin is death - and death will catch up to those who continue in sin and those who have not repented and put their trust in the Savior.

leave the justice and vengeance to the Lord

 

[canadyjd]

I know you are using scripture (which I do not think support your view) but I think your appeal here is mainly emotional.

Christians can have an attitude of love towards a sinner who happens to be under the death penalty but that does not mean they must advocate or believe that the death penalty be removed. The death penalty is the consequence, put in motion by God Himself, for murder.

And as I said previously, God's value of the sanctity of life (i.e., the image of God in man) is so high that he instituted the death penalty for the attack on that image.

Thanks for the civil discussion

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

I'm just curious. Suppose bin Laden is captured. What are we going to do with him ? Feed him ? Give him lawyers, and pay for these lawyers, who could turn out to be brilliant, they could get him off the hook ? Put him in prison, feed him, treat him like a baby, with free doctors and free medicines while at the meantime he keeps spouting out his poison from his cell, to the glee of sensation seeking media, all at the expense of taxpayers ?

What would further the cause of Christ in the world; bin Laden being put to death? Or bin Laden being saved by the power of Almighty God and lving the rest of his natural life proclaiming Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God to Muslims?

Can you image what the early church thought about the conversion of Saul? Can't you see how frightened/amazed they were that the one that had sought their death with great passion, was now living His life for the cause of Christ?

peace to youraying: