death penalty?

[Marcia]

I believe something was said about following the "law of the land". That's what I responded to.

Okay, that was someone else's post, since I did not say "law of the land," but I was responding to your post to someone else! now? :smilewinkgrin:

I just wanted to make that point, which I thought was a good one (about the execution of Christians not being for murder). :type:

 

[Marcia]

We wouldn't have any crime in America today if everyone had the same spirit of mercy, compassion and love that Jesus commanded His followers to have.

Man, it's hard to know where to begin to respond to this one!!

Are you talking about if everyone, including non-believers, had this mercy, compassion and love? That's impossible! It's even impossible for Christians to be perfect! No crime means no sin - that will only happen in heaven.

Do you think God has no mercy, compassion, or love because of what he said in Gen. 9.6 or in telling the Israelites at various times to go kill all the people in certain areas?

 

[canadyjd]

Okay, that was someone else's post, since I did not say "law of the land," but I was responding to your post to someone else! now? :smilewinkgrin:

I just wanted to make that point, which I thought was a good one (about the execution of Christians not being for murder). :type:

Yes, your point is a good one. Christians are not usually killed in Muslim countries for murder, but for simply being a Christian.

Still, others have made the point that we should follow the "law of the land" because of Rom. 13. I have not yet had anyone think they should support the death of Christians, in such a case, but hopefully they will think a little more closely about what they are saying.

peace to youraying:

 

[pinoybaptist]

Because God is. throughout biblical history God has always dealt with those who sin. It is his way of cleaning out evil so it doesn't spread through each generation.
Here is just one small example.

My bible study today was about Saul in 1 Samuel 15, God asked Saul through Samuel to DISTROY the Ameleks because of their evil ways. He said for Saul to distroy ALL the men women and children and infants and animals. Spare No one.
Saul disobeyed so God delt with him in other areas. It is because Saul and others in the old testament didn't totally obey God in distroying all he had asked, that there are so many problems today with the Palestinians.

We wouldn't have half the crime we would today in America if there were harsher punishments. Punishments that fit the crime. we have it all backwards in this country the crimminals have more rights than the victims. Something is wrong with that picture.

Don't get me wrong. I am for the death penalty, and support it, where it is part of the law.

However, if it is not part of the law, I see no problem either.

I mean, I won't go around demanding its imposition, and I believe that the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime, but a cleansing of society. I feel more comfortable in a society where heinous crimes are punished with capital punishment, and criminals are punished instead of pampered like we do here.

But I won't go around demanding its abolition, either.

In line with God ordering the annihilation of people, I see it as relevant to the spiritual truth that we need to mortify the flesh, that is, kill the enemy within us, and that if we don't, if we compromise like Saul did and leave one enemy alive within us, then that one living enemy is enough to corrupt us and affect our relationship with God.

A second spiritual truth I see in that is that within God's kingdom, the local church, He is to reign supreme, and anything that corrupts the truth of God and the fellowship of saints must be weaned out and destroyed.

 

[canadyjd]

Are you talking about if everyone, including non-believers, had this mercy, compassion and love? That's impossible! It's even impossible for Christians to be perfect! No crime means no sin - that will only happen in heaven.

My response was to someone who said we wouldn't have 1/2 the crime in America if we had harsher punishment.

My point is this. When we hope or dream for a better world, do we hope/dream for more/harsher punishment for criminals, more people being put to death, more people being locked up?

or

do we hope for mercy, compassion and love? Why do we, as Christians, think the answer to this problem lies with the government and harsher punishments? Why don't we, as Christians, look to God to bring a great movement of His Spirit upon this land, and bring many more sons and daughters to glory?

He has his idea of what would make this country better, and I have mine.

Nothing is impossible with God, BTW.

peace to youraying:

 

[pinoybaptist]

Someone said we wouldn't have half the crime we have in this country if we had harsher punishments.
I'm sorry to say that is not true.
Back in the early years of Martial Law in my country, police usually had gang intelligence and other intelligence on known felons, repeat offenders and incorrigible recidivists in Metro Manila.
Metro Manila was composed then of four cities and more than ten major municipalities, all crime ridden, all drug infested.
The police in these areas put up Task Forces.
The task was to be judge, jury, and executioner.
Every known drug dealer, drug lord, recidivist, gang member, rapist, murderer, escapee, they could get their hands on were found riddled with bullets in isolated places around the city, shot by "unknown" assailants.
Crime did go down, because there was some cleansing done.

The gangs remained, though, drugs were still in the streets, murders still happened, rapes still occured, although some escapees returned to jail, and corrupt cops "retired" or "resigned", or just became a little more cautious.

But Metro Manila today, after that harrowing experience, is still as ridden with crime and criminals still roam the streets, and I don't think there is basically any difference between a big city USA street and the streets of Manila, nor between the Filipino criminal and the American criminal except the color of skin and the language.

Man is a fallen creature, living in a fallen environment, and as long as Christ does not return no amount of harsher laws or punishment can deter crime because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

 

[Marcia]

My response was to someone who said we wouldn't have 1/2 the crime in America if we had harsher punishment.

My point is this. When we hope or dream for a better world, do we hope/dream for more/harsher punishment for criminals, more people being put to death, more people being locked up?

or

do we hope for mercy, compassion and love? Why do we, as Christians, think the answer to this problem lies with the government and harsher punishments? Why don't we, as Christians, look to God to bring a great movement of His Spirit upon this land, and bring many more sons and daughters to glory?

He has his idea of what would make this country better, and I have mine.

Well, thanks for clarifying. I have never said I support the death penalty because it would make society better or because it is an answer to a problem (which others may have said). In fact, I have never said I support the death penalty. I just said that there is biblical support for it, and I have not seen biblical support, imo, the other way.

I also see no conflict in witnessing, praying for more to come to Christ, etc. and supporting the death penalty. I do not think we are building the Kingdom of God -- I am not a Dominionist. I think as the Bible says, sin will increase, more false teachers will appear, more will be deceived, and as, Jesus said, when he comes again, will he find faith? The Kingdom will come with Christ.

I guess I will stop replying to your responses to other people's posts! :wavey:

 

[pinoybaptist]

On the other hand, it is just as easy to talk of being gracious and merciful and Christian and Christlike if one is not the victim.

Picture a child. Four years old. Kidnapped by a pedophile. Raped, abused, tortured, mutilated, and then murdered.

Is she the only victim ?

What about society. The child could have grown up to be a productive member of society, a doctor, a lawyer, maybe even president.

What about the people who loved this child. The father, the mother, who will never see their child grow up, study, go on a date, drive the first car, graduate, and marry and give them grandchildren.

What about the brothers, the sisters, the uncles, the aunts, the grandparents ?

It is soooo eeeeaaasssyyy to plead for the perpetrator, and forget the victims.

The perp gets caught, and we lock him up, feed him good food, protect him from fellow perverts in the prisons, pay a psychologist top salary to "rehabilitate" him, tend to him when he gets sick, and finally, release him.

A couple of years down the road, he kills another child, and more families become victims.

 

[Phillipians121]

However, if it is not part of the law, I see no problem either.

I mean, I won't go around demanding its imposition, and I believe that the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime, but a cleansing of society. I feel more comfortable in a society where heinous crimes are punished with capital punishment, and criminals are punished instead of pampered like we do here.

But I won't go around demanding its abolition, either.

Ok I see your position here and would have to agree.

But I still believe in the death penalty for certain but not all offenders. If a person is truly remorseful or it was in self defense or a one time thing thing I would suggest a lesser punishment. But for repeat serial offenders I would have to say goodbye.

 

[LeBuick]

Sorry I only skimmed over the 189 post before mine but I believe if you're going to have a death penalty it should be only under the "smoking gun condition".

In other words, the person is not guilty by the amount of evidence but they are guilty without a doubt because they were caught with the smoking gun. Under any other circumstance their may be mistakes made so I say just give them life.

 

[gekko]

still havn't said much about death penalty being in the new testament. two verses. woopee. get some more info without eisegeting it all.

still havn't responded to my question: "next time somebody lies - or commits adultery - or steals - or covets - or how about even more serious crimes... like taking the Lord's name in vain - idolatry.... next time somebody does any of those... should they be sentenced to the death penalty?"

think about it... is God really asking us to kill those that murder?
or is it just you?

you want to use gen. 9:6 for death penalty - i'll use exodus 20 for the shabbat.

God bless

 

[pinoybaptist]

Philippians 1:21 and LeBuick:

The operative word is heinous crime, proven beyond reasonable doubt, preferably thru eyewitness and forensics, and not just eyewitnesses, because eyewitness testimony can be manipulated by an overzealous or politically ambitious ADA or DA, or police who just want statistics.

Even the police Task forces in my country which I told you all about during the early 70's did not just pick up any criminal. They went for the repeat offenders and the incorigibles and such as is marked on their lists according to years of police intelligence work.

 

[pinoybaptist]

still havn't said much about death penalty being in the new testament. two verses. woopee. get some more info without eisegeting it all.

still havn't responded to my question: "next time somebody lies - or commits adultery - or steals - or covets - or how about even more serious crimes... like taking the Lord's name in vain - idolatry.... next time somebody does any of those... should they be sentenced to the death penalty?"

think about it... is God really asking us to kill those that murder?
or is it just you?

you want to use gen. 9:6 for death penalty - i'll use exodus 20 for the shabbat.

God bless

Romans 13:1 -

" Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

Let every believer (remember that the Bible was written for the benefit of God's people in the churches, and only them) be submissive to government. Obey the laws, do not break them, do not oppose them, submit to the law. Why ? Because God is the God of history, people may think that they are the ones who make history happen, but God is ahead of history. He uses history to His benefit and advantage and for the benefit and advantage of His own people. Even the rulers in atheistic societies were put there by God for a purpose, either for purposes of His glory, or purposes of the safety or chastisement or edification of His people. Are you clear on this ?

Romans 13:2, a - "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:"

Whosoever means whosoever. Whether the offender is a child of God, or a child of the devil, whosoever runs contrary to law, to the powers that be in government, resists not the humans running that government, but the God who installed and ordained that government.

Romans 13:2, b - "and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation." The language can't be any clearer. The offender gets what is coming to him, according to the law he broke ! If the law says the one who committed a crime defined as heinous gets the death penalty, then that's what he brought upon his head. Society did not tell him to do that crime, God did not instruct him to do that crime, Satan did not appear to him and tell him to do that crime, he did it, knowingly and willfully, therefore he suffers the consequences of the law.


However, if the law says that the one who did a heinous crime, is to be fattened and pampered in jail, treated as an unlucky individual who happens to be "sick" and therefore ought to be treated with gloved hands and cooing words, and given all the gym equipment he needs so he can build his muscles and become stronger than the members of the decent society outside his prison bars to whom he will be released after "rehabilitation", then that's what he gets, and who are we to say otherwise ?

The offenses you cited above are, unfortunately, according to the laws of man, not heinous crimes, not even serious crimes. And to demand the death penalty for them is considered in this fallen world, ludicrous and ridiculous.

How many years for fraud, or false testimony, or adultery ? And which state has a law for covetousness ? As for taking the Lord's Name in vain ? If there were a law sentencing anyone to death because of these offenses, why, every Hollywood movie and tv actor and porn actors and actresses, from Robert de Niro to the extra who gets thrown off the building, will be executed, including I hope the parties to their crime - the moviegoers.

 

[LeBuick]

still havn't said much about death penalty being in the new testament. two verses. woopee. get some more info without eisegeting it all.

The new testament is more foused on grace and forgiveness. I don't know if the death penalty would be a hot topic. Any child of God should not have a desire to kill or one could say anyone who has a desire to kill is probably not a repented believer of Christ. So that leaves the death penalty to the secular world.

 

[Allan]

Actually, No it doesn't leave it in the secular world.

God says be subject to authorities - They carry the sword for a reason (paraprase)

We must remember there is a VAST difference between MURDER and the death penalty.

Thou shall not Kill - is a very bad translation since it is actually murder or better to kill WITHOUT JUST cause.

God told the Israelite to kill, and even wipe out all living things in some pagan cities.

When they brought the woman caught in sin (adulty) before Jesus and they wanted to stone her. Were they wrong to stone her.
No. The Law GOD gave says to do so.
Jesus did not denouce the stoning did He? No again.
But He delt with thier sin first.
They sinned in order to get her while in the act OF sin. They could not according to the law pass any judgment since they were themselves were violators of this same law and same SIN. (knowing what was going on and not saying or stopping it puts the same sin upon them for condoning it)

Suffice to say: God initiated the death penalty, not as part of the religious observences which were done away with, but civil laws that were and are still in force. It is the age of grace and forgiveness but consiquences are still to be paid for actions violating civil laws. We can be sexually promiscuous and get aids, and God will forgive you for your sin but with that forgiveness does it necessitate God remove from you the consiquences of your actions.

If a man kills another man for disagreeing with him, and then says he is sorry. As christians should we forgive him and let him go about his life again. No we do not.

It would be best to take God at His word on this issue, He set it up and even madated it in some instances.
If the Death penalty is given or made law that is not just in its decision to kill (according to scripture) we as christians should not be for it.

I would like to think of what christians today would have said to Jesus when He chased, and whipped the money changers out of the temple.
It is not death but He sure beat the snot out of them enough that they fled!

 

[canadyjd]

I would like to think of what christians today would have said to Jesus when He chased, and whipped the money changers out of the temple.
It is not death but He sure beat the snot out of them enough that they fled!

I would say He is God. He gets to make those kinds of decisions. One thing He never told His followers to do was to seek or support the death of anyone. He said many times that the attitude we should have is, in fact, contrary to seeking or supporting the death of someone.

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

Yes, in reference of the salvation of the soul.

Question: Did Jesus do away with the Law?
Answer: No, but fulfilled the Law IN RELATION to our acceptence before a Holy God. We are no longer under the Law for righteousness but Grace. This which was fulfilled was for the religous observences NOT the civil aspects. Both of which were given by God.

Question: Did Jesus do away with the civil Laws (this includes those that mandate a death penalty)?
Answer: No, He did not.

You state Canady:

One thing He never told His followers to do was to seek or support the death of anyone.

It was never an issue to be address. God gave the laws and Jesus agreed with them. If Jesus would have spoken against them, He would have been speaking against His Father direct commands.

Jesus also never addressed the issue of restitution concerning the law - is that also done away with since we are to forgive.

How about Jesus not addressing imprisonment or confinment - is that also done away with.

The answer to all of these are NO. There are consequences for our actions but the judgmental authority God has given to governing bodies must be done with Mercy, compassion, Justice, righteousness, and even holyness.

If one got the death penalty for spanking (proporly disaplining) a child - I am against that (punishment does not suit the crime)

If someone received the death penalty due the fact he killed a girls parents because they would not allow her to date until she is 18 - I am for it !!!!

 

[LeBuick]

When they brought the woman caught in sin (adulty) before Jesus and they wanted to stone her. Were they wrong to stone her.
No. The Law GOD gave says to do so.
Jesus did not denouce the stoning did He? No again.
But He delt with thier sin first.!

If this were modern times I can still hear Jesus saying let he that is without sin flip the switch.

The Church should not be a judging institution, it should be one who seeks sinners wanting to repent and be saved. This is different from the OT where they had judges and was told by God how to handle most situations.

 

[canadyjd]

Question: Did Jesus do away with the Law?
Answer: No, but fulfilled the Law IN RELATION to our acceptence before a Holy God.

Jesus often revealed meaning to the Law that was not understood at the time. "You have heard it was said by the ancients...but I say..." The standard for "Do not kill" becomes "do not be angry". Then standard for "Do not commit adultery" becomes "do not lust in your heart", and so on.

When Jesus told the crowd in John 8, "He that is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her", He wasn't just trying to shame them. He was referring to the Old Testament standard for implementing the death penalty found in Deut: 17:6-7.

According to the Old Testament standard, the two or three witnesses where the first to throw the stones at the person. By doing so, the blood of that person was on their hands. The new standard commanded by Jesus is "He that is without sin" implements the death penalty.

The reason for the new standard should remain obvious, even today. Sinful men/women cannot implement the death penalty with the wisdom and righteousness required by God. The actions of the crowd proved that. Any look at the death penalty throughout history will prove that.

We are deceiving ourselves if we think we have the wisdom and righteousness to implement the death penalty.

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

Jesus was showing the spiritual aspect of a physical issue due to the fact some figured there was nothing wrong if they did it in the privacy of their own hearts and therefore not Sin. But it does not do away with the fact the physical just like the spiritual have consiquences to those actions.

And yet we find God said to do it.

That these governments set up wield their sword for a reason. What do you think a sword is used for?


I agree LeBuick, The Church (as a body) should not be the inforcers of death with regard to civil issues as they are give to our civil authorities.

Did Jesus speak out against those who crusified the theives next to Him?

Do we find the apostles sharing with the Jews that stoning is baaaaad?
We find in scripture much discipline and even that which is tant amount to spiritual death given by the church - to shun those who live a lifestyle of sin. Cut them off from fellowship, until they repent.

YOur arguments do not stand in relation to historical christianity on this issue or scripture.

He that is without sin - had nothing to do with them wanting to stone her for sin - per say- , but more so because they were more guilty than she was- AND THEY KNEW IT. Where scripture speaks - let it speak, and where it stays silent, let it be forced to say our views.

God established the Death penalty, Yes or No?

Did Jesus do away with the civil laws God inacted, Yes or No? If Yes scripture please.

Does the scripture ever state the sentence of death is wrong, Yes or No? If yes, Scripture please.

Answers to these:
1. Yes
2. No
3. No