Deception and OSAS

In the parable -- the dead "springs to life" and grows in three of the cases -- but in the case of 2 out of the 3 - it later dies again. In the 4th case it never does spring to life at all but is snatched away by Satan before the seed germinates and the ground is transformed into living tissue through the power of the seed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In Matt 18 the servant is "forgiven ALL" acccording to the King and then the servant is expected to forgive others "JUST AS" he was also fully forigven. Christ then applies this after the parable ends - to his own followers saying "SO shall My Father DO TO EACH ONE OF YOU if you do not forgive others".

If we were to bend and wrench this parable in an all-for-OSAS solution to make it "I forgave you NOTHING and in like manner you SHOULD have forgiven your fellow servant" -- we destroy the teaching of Christ in Matt 18 parable about forgiveness revoked.

IF we were to bend and wrench the parable in an all-for-OSAS solution so as to make it say "SO shall My FATHER NOT DO to each one of you because under OSAS He does not do such things" - we would again - destroy the teaching of Christ in Matt 18.

That has not helped your case at all. You merely add to the end "So shall My Father do to you if each of you does not forgive your brother who repents and asks you for forgivness".

It leaves with the stunning fact that the "SO SHALL My Father DO" - is a reference to "forgiveness revoked".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Look at your fallacy.
You determine so-called truth from a parable. But your truth is false.
The truth is presented again in Luke 17 without the parable. Without the parable you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Exactly. Parables illustrate the teaching of a particular point they do not create new points or new doctrine that the teaching did not cover or mention. Therefore parables only cover the point that was taught and cannot mean anything other than that. Basing a doctrine on a parable but not the teaching the parable illustrates can be a huge mistake.

Darren

 

Except there are many who would choose to ignore the obvious point(s) being taught by certain parables because it doesn't agree with their theology/soteriology.

 

Fortunately in Matt 18 Christ "adds the teaching" that is to be taken from the parable about "forgiveness revoled" He just gave, by saying (once the parable was over) "SO shall My Father do to each one you if You do not forgive your brother from your heart".

Impossible to simply dismiss the words of Christ here, no matter how the story of OSAS "needs us to do it".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Jesus sums up the parable, but it is not "forgiveness revoked". That is only found in your mind. A good summary would be "forgiveness ignored".

It eludes you even though it is right there in the summary. "if you do not forgive from your HEART". The servant had no change of heart. A requirement YOU even said must be else one is not saved.

God has forgiven the world ALL that sin through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, yet those who ignore so great a salvation and go about their wicked ways will not be a benefactor of that forgiveness.

The wicked servant is a good example of those who HEAR God has forgiveness for them, yet they go away unchanged.

"Parable" Bob, it's a parable! You'll lose all day long on this battle ground. You'll lose respect from those watching the debate when they see you so far out of touch with a portion of scripture.

Anti-osas can make some good points in many passages of scripture, all of which I believe with some indepth study can be answered to very well, but when you make up things that just are not there you lose credibility. That is JUST MY OPINION. No hard feelings towards you.

:jesus:

 

Promise of Eternal Security Is Kept by Jesus

The promise of eternal security is kept by Jesus Christ in according to the will of the Father.

John 6: 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So the problem here is discerning how those led astray can occur and those that sow to the flesh would render the judgment of not inheritting the Kingdom of God. Even this cryptic message from Jesus below:

Matthew 20:16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

And again...it is stated:

Matthew 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

If we know the truth that all those that believe have been bought with a price and sealed as His as God finished work in us in having made us His when we came to and believed in Jesus Christ, and we know the promise that he who began a good work in us, shall finish it in the day of Christ Jesus, then when judgment falls on the House of God first at the rapture event, by His grace, we can see what differentiates a vessel unto honour from the vessels unto dishonour. As the foolish virgins did have oil to light their lamps after the door was shut and the prodigal son found out that he was still son; we see the vessels unto dishonour by those missing out of the Marriage Supper.

Some believers would take verse 10 below as implying obtaining salvation by works, but it is the obtaining of salvation in Christ Jesus "with eternal glory" that is being obtained as the prize for running the race and keeping the faith which is the good fight.

2 Timothy 2: 10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.....

So as many are led away from their faith in Christ into labouring in unbelief, yet He abideth faithful.... He is still in us as we have been bought with a price and sealed as His, but we have this high calling from Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2: 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

So even those believers that had their faith overthrown, the Lord knoweth those that are His with that seal of adoption. So the question is not of eternal security, but of being ready as a vessel unto honour to be received by the Bridegroom when He appears.

The damnation of being a vessel unto dishonour is that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth as it will take a miracle from God to wipe the tears from every believer that comes out of the great tribulation to get over that loss of inheritance.

Now before anyone protests: consider this prophecy:

1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,....9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Strong words and yet the damnation of being left behind would deny a believer of obtaining the eternal glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. On this basis of deceptions from the falling away of the faith, we go into the next chapter for further revlations:

2 Thessalonians 3: 1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;......14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

So in spite of the falling away from the faith in being disorderly, these wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith are still considered brothers and not the enemy. It is from this we are to apply these scriptures below.

2 Timothy 2: 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

To be continued... Godbe willing...

 

Continued from previous post...

Revelation 2: 19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

To the church at Philadelphia...

Revelation 3: 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

So here we have God addressing those that have gone astray as His still. The repercussions of being left behind is quite severe. Just as Jesus taught excommunication, so will those vessels unto dishonour be sent through this "excommunication" for the purpose of what Paul said it was for:

1 Corinthians 5: 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

Would not those saints that die in the great tribulation will not even love their lives unto death?

Revelation 12: 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So Jesus is still continuing His work in those left behind after the rapture for once those doors are shut, the accuser has no more access, and those eft behind will know they have been bought with a price by the Blood of the Lamb.

I pray by His grace, all those that read will understand His saying finally:

Matthew 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

It has to deal with being ready for the Marriage Supper by abiding in Him by His grace.

So let us by His grace... pursue this course...towards exposing apostasy...

2 Corinthians 11: 1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

... and this course.. towards putting away the works of the flesh by His grace

1 Corinthians 6:8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Ephesians 6:10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Philippians 4:13I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Philippians 3:14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3: 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Colossians 1: 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Jude 1: 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

In the parable "I FORGAVE you all the debt"

In the parable the King RETURNS all that debt to the servant.

OUTSIDE the Parable Christ said "SO SHALL My Father DO to each one of YOU if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

The teaching of Christ outside the parable is a bit more direct and to the point than your comment above seems to imagine or hope. Your entire defense in the case of Matt 18 seems to rest heavily on the idea "the reader will not notice".

I don't think the point of the text is as difficult for the reader to see as you may have at first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. The church of Philadelphia is not described as those who go into apostasy or as those who went astray.

2. While there is a lot of discussion in scripture about calling the wicked to repent and even God using discipline to get them to repent - there is no such thing as the "saved in rebellion" argument that you are trying to make.

In Romans 2 - Paul is very clear that there is no such thing as "saved in rebellion".

In 1John 2 John argues that the one still claiming to know Christ - yet walking in disobedience is a liar.

In 1Cor 6 Paul argues that those who walk in the way of sin do NOT inherit eternal life -

in Christ,

Bob

 

Thank you for showing how my post was not clear to you. Reposting:

The emboldened statement was referring to Revelation 2nd chapter reference as comparing that church as one that have gone astray as opposing the church at Philadelphia as one found abiding in Him.

I did not mean to imply or infer that the church at Philadelphia went astray as clearly, it is read that they have not.

The "saved in rebellion" label is not applicable to what I am sharing by His grace.

Yes, those that rebel will not inherit the Kingdom of God but no, the prodigal son that gave up his inheritance for wild living ( thus having lost that first inheritance like Esau) will not cease to be son for he has been bought with a price and sealed as His. 1 Corinthians 3:10-23 and Hebrews 12th chapter all consist on how God reproves the disobedient. As Jesus taught excommunication, so will He do when judgment falls on the House of God first. Paul describes this excommunication in this way that it is hard not to see the great tribulation being applied by Jesus when He judges on those found not abiding in Him to be left behind at the rapture event.

1 Corinthians 5: 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

How can 1 Corinthaisn 3:10-23 & Hebrews 12th chpater be NOT seen verse 5?

If you think Jesus would not bother to go after the wayward sheep that departed from the faith and/or have gone carnal...

Matthew 18: 10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Verse 17 sounds harsh but that is the guideline for the churches: as well as a confirmation on those not being His sheep for following a stranger's voice BUT reread verse 14 and know that the will of the Father will win out as He that begins a good work in us, will finish it lest His own words be used at Him.

Luke 14:28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

These words spoken to His disciples in counting the cost in following Him are His Words as God did know the cost in saving us. He will finish it; even on those led astray for in that He will keep His promises in losing nothing.

John 6: 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10: 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers..... 14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Verse 16 is indicative towards verse 5 in that there will be sheep that did not hear nor follow His voice but the voice of strangers, but they will be part of the one fold.

Some would cry foul, but the elder son in the field had something that the prodigal son did not: his inheritance as the father called him in stating that all that he has was belonging to the elder son, but now that the prodigal son that was lost, is now home, there was to be rejoicing for he is still son albeit, he does not have what the elder has for he had given up that inheritance for wild living.

At no time is this to be seen as encouraging believers to live in sin for the loss of that inheritance is assured to be felt by all those left behind... weeping and gnashing of teeth. Many may mock and not take their reconciled relationship with the Lord as valued when they sow to the flesh and live in sin, but like Esau giving up his first inheritance for a meal.. something temporary for that moment in a day in light of eternity, they will wish they had turned to Jesus Christ to deliver them from their desires to sin.

Please drop the "saved through rebellion" label. It makes it look like one is saved through rebellion... and that is not so and hardly applicable. If anyone believed that, they are defrauding themselves of their inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

Anyway.. sorry for the lack of clarity.

 

The other sheep are Gentiles.

 

That is a different application of those verses, but I can see how you got that.

However... Jesus began this discourse about those that climb up another way. John 10:1 And He goes on to say how His sheep follow His voice, and not a stranger's voice ending in verse 5.

This line of discernment was given for believers as He spoke of himself as the door so that the believers may discern false prophets or "thieves" that would come inbetween Him and them in verses 7-9.

It is by this and by His grace, I was able to discern that the other sheep which was not of that fold, was the sheep that followed the stranger's voice.

This is why I do not see the other sheep as referring to the Gentiles.

 

In Christ, steaver.

 

double post

 

In the parable "I FORGAVE you all the debt"

Forgiveness was real -- not potential, not withheld. The servant was to go to jail to pay it back - and instead the forgiveness was fully applied to his account. He was literally free from debt.

Atonement was not only available - but the forgiveness it promises was applied to the servant that owed so much.

In the parable the King RETURNS all that debt to the servant.

This is not a case of the King saying "well I never forgave you in the first place". Nor can it be wrenched to the servant saying "you offerred pardon but I chose to go to jail and pay my debt myself - which is why I also did not forgive others who owed me a debt". OSAS may insist that we "imagine" such a detail - but it is not in the actual Bible text.

In the parable it is an action of the KING that RETURNS the debt.

OUTSIDE the Parable Christ said "SO SHALL My Father DO to each one of YOU if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

OUTSIDE the parable it is the action of God in RETURNING debt that is warned of -- IF those who ARE fully forgiven in Christ do not show that SAME level of full forgiveness to OTHERS just as they have in reality been forgiven.

The teaching of Christ outside the parable is a bit more direct and to the point than your comment above seems to imagine or hope. Your entire defense in the case of Matt 18 seems to rest heavily on the idea "the reader will not notice".

I don't think the point of the text is as difficult for the reader to see as you may have at first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan is right on Matthew 18.

At the beginning, when we first accepted Christ, our sins were ALL forgiven, it speaks of all our PAST sins only. And this is not automatically already forgiven ALL our present and future sins that we not yet yield them.

1 John 1:9 commands us all that we ought confess our sins to Christ, because he is faithful and just to forgive and to cleanse all our sins daily. Or, otherwise, if we continue sinning daily without confess our currently sins, THEN Christ would not going to forgive all our currently sins, unless TILL we confess to Christ first.

In James 1:15-16 warn, if we continue practical sins in our life all the way till our death(physical), without repent or confess to Christ, then, therefore, our currently sins shall lead us to death, which is speaking of spiritual, will be end up in everlasting fire. That why verse 16 says, "DO NOT ERR, my beloved brethren." This verse 16 was written to Christians, NOT to the lost people.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

If Bob is right then you are wrong. Bob says the forgiveness of PAST sins is revoked, therefore the past sins being returned to the sinner to be paid in full by the sinner.

Also, I sin everyday and many times don't even think about those sins and therefore do not ask or forget to ask for forgiveness. According to your pov no one will be saved.

Are you sure you haven't missed a sin?

:jesus:

 

Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

"One gospel", no changed heart, no salvation. The servant had not been saved (born-again).

:jesus: