Devotion to Mary 2

In response to the Jedi I had said...

To which the Rev responded...

It is a strawman indeed, especially since you hardly know anything about me, let alone the manner in which I personally may honor the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos.

(BTW--yes, Ann, the RCC in many respects can be excessive, to say the least, in the way they express 'hyperdulia' for the Mary and overdogmatize in her regard)

 

I've been a casual lurker here, and haven't commented, but I feel the need to address this. Idolatry has a specific definition. It referrs to the worship of idols. Simply praying to a deceased individual does not in and of itself qualify as the definition of idolatry. In order for it to be considered idolatry, it must be an act of worshipping. Roman Catholic doctrine expressly forbids worshipping of any other than Almighty God. Honoring someone, deceased or living, is not in and of itself worship, hence not idolatrous. It's been noted that said honor can be considered excessive, but the topic of excessive honoring is an issue apart from that of idolatry.

 

and i would also add that some Baptist churches can in many respects be just as excessive in their view and almost worship like of the KJV.

In XC
-

 

Not in our church, the KJV is a definite minority.

Getting back to Mary, I have seen many shows on TV about Mary sightings, Mary messages, and other events. Every time I see one of those shows, I walk away with the same thought, "who cares?"

To me, she is just another human being created by God. God chooses who He will use for whatever purpose. He just happen to choose Mary for one purpose, just like He chose David, Moses, Paul, Peter, Abraham, etc, etc for other purposes.

 

What possible purpose could there be for praying to a dead person if it is not worship? What do you think they are going to do for you? What is in your prayers? Thanksgiving? Adoration? Help through a tough situation?

Even if it is not technically worship, they are not going to help you one iota.

 

Catholics have redefined the word "worship" so that they can say they do not commit idolatry, yet the sin of idolatry is still committed.
They bow down to idols. The stations of the cross are a good example.

That qualifies as "spiritism," "necromancy," "the occult," etc. That is far more than just idolatry. It encompasses a wide range of sins that are strongly condemned in the Bible.

Then define worship:

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/worship

Then why do they give homage or worship to Mary and all the saints, as is evidenced by their prayers, many of which have been posted here numerous times?

Example:
"Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb: Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God; Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

This prayer to Mary is horribly idolatrous. It pays homage to Mary. It assumes that Mary is omniscient, omnipresent--that she can here this RCC prayer from all RCC believers all over the world everywhere at all times and be able to answer it. Perhaps that makes her omnipotent as well. These are attributes only God has. They are ascribing deity to Mary.

The above is more than honor. They made of her God and worshiped her as such. That is idolatry.

 

Excessive honor in this context is worship

 

1 John 5:21 My little children, guard yourselves from idols"whatever comes between you and God". They can take MANY forms as a girlfriend,husband,wife,child,career,dreams...not just religious stuff.

 

Scripturally Saints are all who believe. And why would anyone pray to a dead person when they have the call and freedom to go straight to the throne?

 

Pope John Paul II would not have agreed with this. In an essay about the Assumption called "Mary Is First Creature to Enjoy Eternal Life," published in 1997, he said:

 

You should ask a Roman Catholic that.

 

Read the story of the rich man who died and wanted Lazarus to return to warn them. People when they die are not Omnipresent.

 

If that's what you think, then you don't have an understanding of what the Stations of the Cross is (unless you think prayer stations in general are idolatrous).

Asking someone to pray for your is not idolatrous. Your issue isn't with asking someone to pray for you, it's the issue of asking someone who is deceased to pray for you. The fact that a person is deceased does not make the request idolatrous. That said, I personally don't believe in petitioning deceased persons to pray for us, but the fact that I don't believe that doesn't mean that anyone who does so is being idolatrous.

 

How about the AV 1611 only people?

 

From a Catholic Perspective Mary is out side of space time as are all the Saints. God so its not a matter of being like God in that he is omnipresent but that they are given like a prayer list to pray for that God gives them. DHK you were Catholic at one point I think you've said. There is a part of the liturgy (if you remember called intersessions) Where the church prays for certain things given there. I think the Catholic holds that Heaven hold to the Liturgical way of doing things and that intersessions are given to the saints for prayer. This is how it was explained to me. Now I don't know if this is how the Catholic Church always viewed it or a recent Catholic Apologetical look at it. However, no matter how its viewed. Who doesn't want to be prayed for? I tried to argue the Hail Mary Prayer as Idolatry to my family. I didn't go over too well because there is nothing in that particular prayer that points to Mary being God. Execpt Mother of God which the original latin would have been Mater Dei or a direct referrence to the Greek Theotokos. and/or Pray for us sinners which is actually showing subserviance to God and not replacing him. I have better traction with Hail Holy Queen.

 

That is what I know from my 20 years experience in the Catholic Church.
First, the command to make any graven image unto God is broken. Jesus is God.
Second, the command to bow down before them is broken.
Third, the command to pray either before them or to them is broken.

If you want another example: Whenever our family set out to travel on a long journey we had a magnetic icon of St. Christopher that adhered to the dash on the car. We always focused our eyes on that icom, and prayed toward it, addressing St. Christopher (the patron saint of travel or safety) to keep us safe on our travels. That is nothing but idolatry. Thousands of other Catholics did the same (until they found out that St. Christopher never existed).

I will pray FOR your lumbago, but I will NOT pray TO you; you are not a god that I should pray TO you. That is what the Catholics do. They pray TO the saints in heaven, making them gods. They pray TO Mary giving her the very attributes that God alone has. There is a big difference between praying TO God for you and for a need of yours; or asking someone else TO pray to GOD for you, then actually praying TO the person. Praying TO a person, even a dead person is idolatry, necromancy, spiritism, and dabbling in the occult; all of which are strongly condemned in the Bible.

 

Whether it is a part of their liturgy or not it doesn't matter. Praying to anyone else but God is idolatry. He alone is worthy, and demands our worship. He alone can answer prayer. There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. That excludes all else. It doesn't matter what the RCC says; it matters what the Bible says. If one prays to dead saints they are praying to dead people which can never answer prayer, nor can even hear prayers--we have no evidence that they can. Praying to anyone else but God is idolatry.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

They can't pray for you. And when you ask them to pray for you, then you are praying TO them. That is idolatry, and it is making them gods--giving them attributes that only God has--the power to answer prayer.

Just the fact that one is praying to anyone else but God is sufficient enough to show that it is idolatry. God commands that all prayers be directed to him. Prayer is worship. Only God can be worshiped. He demands all worship to be directed to him. If it isn't it is idolatry.