We are not supposed to fully understand it. Is it ok to talk about with a little philosophy based on what we know about God? I'd say so as long as we are Christ-like about it. I think Scripture is clear that it is impossible for God to sin. I think it is also clear that man is wicked at heart.
Just thought I'd kick the dead horse a few more times thats all :)
Did Jesus have a sin nature?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Robert Snow, Jan 6, 2011.
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How about this paradox: Can God die or can the Trinity be divided? Both occurred on the cross. Jesus, as God, DIED. How? He is the God-man. Where do you think the Greeks got their idea of Perseus? When Jesus cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?", God had separated Himself from Christ in judgment of the sin that Jesus had taken upon Himself for us. This was the true sacrifice of the cross; the Son was not part of the Trinity for a time.
Jehovah is a God of infinite complexity that we will never fully understand. Our very existence is in contradiction with His holy nature. His grace & judgement are diametrically opposed & yet exist in complete harmony through the person & sacrifice of Christ. Christ's ability to sin was in complete harmony with His submission to the Father's will. BTW, if His will was the same as the Father's, then how could He have submitted to Him? To submit implies freedom of choice & freedom of choice is the ability to sin. -
That is the difference of being tempted and not given over to the temptation. -
So are you saying that Jesus never felt the temptation? It was one sided? It was offered but he had no desire for the offering?
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. -
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in ALL points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
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A person does not have to be able to carry out a sinful act in order to be tempted. A paralyzed man could be tempted by lust without having the ability to actually commit adultery.
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For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. -
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[Exodus 20:14] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. -
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
How does He feel our infirmitiesif He felt nothing? -
There is nothing wrong with being hungry, but something wrong with obeying the devil.
Is it a sin to be hungry? -
2Cor.5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Psa. 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Heb. 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Jesus was made a "little lower than the angels", because He was to taste death for us, which the angels in heaven couldn't do, die for our sins. His flesh was like ours, but I believe His flesh was "sinless". He had a "earthly" mother(like all of us), but He had/has a heavenly Father, and our father is a natural man. This is what seperates His earthly flesh He had here on earth from ours now. We have a completely different daddy than He had/has.
i am I am's!!
Willis -
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Hunger is a natural feeling as is lust (desire) and neither is sin, but the temptation in the wilderness was not for hunger, but to satisfy that hunger in a certain manner. The same with lusting for a woman not your wife.
How was the Lord tempted as we are?
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
A Needed Clarification
Since Robert has (intentionally?) dragged my name through the mud and called me a blasphemer (because he was, obviously, incapable or unwilling to read the entirety of my post), It is obvious that some clarification is needed.
It amazes me that people who fancy themselves "educated" will not read the entirety of what was said. (Robert, I am talking to you). In what I posted (here) I claimed 2 things: 1.) Jesus had a sin-nature and 2.) He never sinned.
When I say that Jesus had a sin-nature I mean what Augustine meant (which is wonderfully summarized):
Now, just so there is no further misunderstanding, let me state this succinctly: Jesus was absolutely, unequivocally, and totally without sin--inherited or committed by Himself.
There is a logical disconnect in the minds of some persons that a "sin nature" means that one must sin. As I have demonstrated, that is not at all the way I was using the concept.
Do I think Jesus could have contracted a cold? Absolutely. Was that part of (using Augustine's thought) sin having impacted His human nature? Sure. Having a cold is the byproduct of living in a fallen, sinful world--a world to which Jesus was not immune.
A FURTHER EXPLANATION:
There is the concept in scripture of "Original Sin." The concept means that we are held guilty for Adam's sin because we, in some way, sinned with him in the garden.
The virgin birth negates this in Jesus. This Original Sin (or as some call it "Original Guilt") is passed through the man. This is what necessitates Jesus having to be born of a virgin. So, Jesus is free from Original Sin due to the virgin birth because no man was involved and the curse passes through the man.
However, Mary was still human and still a sinner. Therefore, Jesus bears a human nature impacted by sin (in the second way described Augustine) though He Himself bears none of Adam's guilt nor any guilt of His own.
Jesus (being the God-Man) has two natures (but one person) expressed in the term "Hypostatic Union"--in which the divine nature and the human nature are present in one person.
Jesus is Himself "the second Adam" and as David Wells would say: Jesus is everything Adam was intended to be and wasn't. [2]
To set the record straight even further: I do not believe it was possible for Jesus to sin when tempted. There was no way He could because there was never a time when He was not God and God cannot sin.
I hope that clarifies what I was saying. In the future, I guess, I will have to be more careful to explain what I am saying upfront, so that no one goes of the deep end.
Blessings,
The Archangel
[1] Steve Jeffery, Michael Ovey, and Andrew Sach, Pierced For Our Transgressions: Rediscovering the Glory of Penal Substitution (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 2007), 178.
[2] David Wells, The Person of Christ (Westchester: Crossway, 1984), 175 quoted in Daniel L. Akin, "The Person of Christ," in A Theology For The Church, ed. Daniel L. Akin, David P. Nelson, and Peter R. Schemm, Jr. (Nashville, TN: B & H Publishing Group, 2007), 539. -
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
I freely admit that my usage could have and should have had clarification. I thought clarification was unnecessary because I stated (bluntly) that Jesus never sinned.
Perhaps it would have been better to state that He had a fully human nature (which was and could be impacted by sin, again, in the second sense in which Augustine used it).
In the future, I will do my best to clarify better.
The Archangel -
I will sign off for tonight. God belss. -
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)
For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness: all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man. (Mark 7:21-23) -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel
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