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Featured Did Jesus Really Die For Judas?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed1689, Nov 15, 2021.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I have seen it argued in other places that Jesus died for all including Judas. To support this theory they have used the scenes of the Last Supper.

    Typically they point to Luke 22:19-20 and point out that Jesus says, “This is my body which is broken for you” (emphasis mine). They point out the same for the cup. The argument goes that since Judas was still in the room Jesus included him in the atonement. But this is a gross mishandling of Scripture and taking things way out of context.

    First, it ignores other passages on the Last Supper. In Matthew and Mark’s account, it says his blood is poured out for many, not all.

    Second, if we look in John’s Gospel, Jesus clearly states that “you” does not include all twelve disciples. In John 13:18 while Jesus is washing His disciple’s feet, he states, “I am not speaking of all of you, I know whom I have chosen.”

    In the verses preceding verse 18, Jesus is speaking using the same term “You” that he uses in Luke 22. But he clarifies that he is speaking to a certain subset of the people in the room and not everyone.

    We must look at all of Scripture without our presuppositions to come to the truth. Jesus did not die for all and Scripture does not claim that he does. In fact, Jesus stated he only died for the sheep.
     
    #1 Reformed1689, Nov 15, 2021
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Your conclusion makes no sense.
     
    #2 37818, Nov 15, 2021
  3. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    How so?
     
    #3 Reformed1689, Nov 15, 2021
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #4 37818, Nov 15, 2021
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Did Jesus really die for the devil?

    70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil? Jn 6
     
    #5 kyredneck, Nov 15, 2021
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  6. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    #6 Reformed1689, Nov 15, 2021
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. The institution of the Lord's remembrance Luke 22:19-20 and the foot washing John 13:4-12 are in fact distinct events that night.
     
    #7 37818, Nov 15, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    They are different pieces of the same event.
     
    #8 Reformed1689, Nov 15, 2021
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus stated Judas was a devil, and better to never have been born!
     
    #9 Yeshua1, Nov 15, 2021
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How do you define the eating the Passover, the institution of the remembrance then the foot washing as parts of one event? The "you" in the remembrance is not what is referred to in John 13:10-18. One includes Judas, Luke 22:19-21 the other does not.
     
    #10 37818, Nov 15, 2021
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  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #11 37818, Nov 15, 2021
  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    It shows that Jesus was not making all of his promises to all 12 in the Last Supper which is the SAME EVENT as the washing of the feet. That was at the start.
     
    #12 Reformed1689, Nov 15, 2021
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  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And unsaved people take communion all the time. What is your point?
     
    #13 Reformed1689, Nov 15, 2021
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  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Saying what is patentily false does not make what is not in evidence to be true.
    Judas being one of "them" in Luke 22:19-21 proves both the Catholic mass and and the Calvinist view point on this matter false. Thank you for your OP.
     
    #14 37818, Nov 15, 2021
  15. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    So you are ignoring the entire point and then declaring yourself correct. Noted.
     
    #15 Reformed1689, Nov 15, 2021
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What fact did I ignore? Present that detail.

    Judas was explicitly counted as one of them in Luke 22:19-21, ". . . And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."
     
    #16 37818, Nov 15, 2021
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Many godless people have partaken in remembrance.
    Do you take a Roman Catholic view of communion as a sacrament of grace?
     
    #17 AustinC, Nov 15, 2021
  18. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    A devil is not The Devil.
     
    #18 Reynolds, Nov 15, 2021
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    My Baptist view here is that there are no sacraments. Judas ate of the remembrance that Jesus instituted, Luke 22:19-21. @Reformed1689 so kindly brought to attention that event is an evidence against the five point Calvinist's view of atonement by presenting an argument against that non Calvinist view.
     
    #19 37818, Nov 15, 2021
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    This is laughable at best and ignoring all of what I said.
     
    #20 Reformed1689, Nov 15, 2021
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