How can say that with any assurance?
You just defined one verse with "world" as in "the first century only."
Why not this one? What makes you so sure that the author was not writing to just the elect of the first century? Of course if he was, then you can't be sure if you are one of the elect.
Did Paul teach the Pre-Trib view?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Apr 27, 2015.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
This is clear even if you try your best to confuse it....[It seems you only confuse yourself}
ALL of the elect were chosen by God before the world was and everyone of them will be saved.
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: -
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In such simple scriptures as:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I believe the world encompasses all the world, saved and unsaved alike.
I don't have the problem you do of having to redefine words of "world" "whosoever" etc. The words say what they mean and mean what they say.
I can't imagine you having to teach a class of grade one through four Sunday School children. Have the class to read John 3:16. Ask them what it means when the Bible says: "God so loved the world that he gave his only son..."
Do those children--the world over--think that the "world" will be redefined as the "world of the elect." How many people reading that verse would naturally come to that conclusion if they had not been first indoctrinated with Calvinism?
It obviously is not a natural translation. In fact it is entirely unnatural and outside of the context. It is forced into it.
Thus with such forced definitions one must wonder, how can a Calvinist be sure that he is one of the elect when he keeps on changing the very definitions of the words that define "the elect" at his own whim and will? -
Jordan Kurecki Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
still waiting for a response to this from OldRegular. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
He does not have to save any, He saves All he has planned to save...Evewn a child can grasp this concept.
That is why The Spirit gives a new heart and indwells the elect believer. -
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Iconoclast;
Your sense of timing is absolutely awful. Let me explain why.
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Joh 6:15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
You and those who believe as you are stretching scripture horribly. Why, I don't know.
I must depart now but I might answer the rest later. Best wishes. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Calypsis4
The King coming to Zion is no small matter....
4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years.
5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.
6 And the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.
7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
27 God is the Lord, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.
28 Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee.
29 O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
He is the Divine King.......He comes as King....Look clearly at this verse that was quoted of our Lord;
zech
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
THY KING cometh unto thee.... matthew quotes it quite directly
Matthew 21 King James Version (KJV)
21 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
The people here who saw the triumphal entry were part of the elect remnant...Paul also quotes from Isa 1 which you scoff at and totally miss the point he makes.
You miss it because you are trying to defend a system that is flawed. Some of us have found some of those flaws....perhaps you have not seen anyone question the ideas you have imbibed.....but nevertheless many of us now question what we were first exposed to and are still searching it out..
8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
We do not have a list of names but you get the idea as they quote from psalm118...... now watch how paul speaks of them;
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
isa1:9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
pt2
Did Peter mention David and the throne on the day of Pentecost?
let's see;
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Hal Lindsey and tim lahaye say so...but scripture does not.
Jesus said this happens on the last day...very clearly;
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Topic: Age
<A-1,Noun,165,aion>
"an age, era" (to be connected with aei, "ever," rather than with ao, "to breathe"), signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period. The force attaching to the word is not so much that of the actual length of a period, but that of a period marked by spiritual or moral characteristics. This is illustrated in the use of the adjective [see Note (1) below] in the phrase "life eternal," in John 17:3, in respect of the increasing knowledge of God.
The phrases containing this word should not be rendered literally, but consistently with its sense of indefinite duration. Thus eis ton aiona does not mean "unto the age" but "for ever" (see, e.g., Heb. 5:6). The Greeks contrasted that which came to an end with that which was expressed by this phrase, which shows that they conceived of it as expressing interminable duration.
The word occurs most frequently in the Gospel of John, the Hebrews and Revelation. It is sometimes wrongly rendered "world." See COURSE, ETERNAL, WORLD. It is a characteristic word of John's Gospel.
Notes: (1) Aionios, the adjective corresponding, denoting "eternal," is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., "for a season," 2 Cor. 4:18. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom. 16:26, His power, 1 Tim. 6:16, His glory, 1 Pet. 5:10, the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14, redemption, Heb. 9:12, salvation, 5:9, life in Christ, John 3:16, the resurrection body, 2 Cor. 5:1, the future rule of Christ, 2 Pet. 1:11, which is declared to be without end, Luke 1:33, of sin that never has forgiveness, Mark 3:29, the judgment of God, Heb. 6:2, and of fire, one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7. See ETERNAL, EVERLASTING.
(2) In Rev. 15:3, the RV has "King of the ages," according to the texts which have aionon; the AV has "of saints" (hagion, in inferior mss.). There is good ms. evidence for ethnon, "nations," (AV, marg.), probably a quotation from Jer. 10:7. -
Iconoclast:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...
Acts 3:19.
A person will neither repent nor therefore be converted without an acceptance of the truth that Jesus Christ as God's Son who was crucified for all our sins.
I believe that I have been communicating with a true heretic in terms of Titus 3:10 for you are clearly not being led by the Holy Spirit in your remarks, so I will break off any further discussion because this discussion is going nowhere.
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Paul wrote under the guidance of GOD, therefore, Paul could not teach a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church!
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1 Corinth. 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
How can you believe in such an incredible falsehood in light of Pauls own teaching as he described it above?
Since Paul was a devoted follower of Jesus who taught that,
Lu 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
So to 'escape' is to stand before the Son of Man...and that my friends matches what Paul said in the above quoted verses concerning the rapture. -
John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at theLAST DAY..
John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY..
John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY..
John 6:54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
Now I understand that the disciples of Darby will invent a multitude of last days in an attempt to justify their false doctrine but that is your problem. The Apostle Peter says of these people just after he gives us a picture of the Return of Jesus Christ at the LAST DAY:
2 Peter 3:15, 16
15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Peter says it well! -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Caly4
translation.......I cannot answer what you have asked me.....I am not equipped to answer any of these things........it is easier to just call you a name......very politely of course........I will say you are a heretic even though I caly4 cannot produce one verse that uses the word to accept Jesus.
I am also afraid that you will point out that real Christians are made accepted in the beloved in eph1........so I will sneak away citing titus3 with no basis in fact........ -
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Iconoclast said: ↑It is the elect from all ages....ALL THE FATHER Has Given to the Son 1st century ,2nd, third, 4th...every century
This is clear even if you try your best to confuse it....[It seems you only confuse yourself}
ALL of the elect were chosen by God before the world was and everyone of them will be saved.
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:Click to expand...
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Calypsis4 said: ↑Will you stop being so dishonest as to call me a 'Darbyite'? I have never read Darby in my life; not a single page.Click to expand...
Calypsis4 said: ↑I quoted Him verbatim on that and you deliberately and willfully rejected His words.
I believe I'll post others now.
Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑Caly4
translation.......I cannot answer what you have asked me.....I am not equipped to answer any of these things........it is easier to just call you a name......very politely of course........I will say you are a heretic even though I caly4 cannot produce one verse that uses the word to accept Jesus.
I am also afraid that you will point out that real Christians are made accepted in the beloved in eph1........so I will sneak away citing titus3 with no basis in fact........Click to expand...
If that isn't the case then how do you know the word "accepted" isn't in the original "Greek" text. Can you read it fluent enough to tell us that there are places where words could have been translated that way?
So either you are an extreme and rabid KJVO, or you are a Greek expert that can read the Greek fluidly without any Greek aids whatsoever. Which is it?
Your hypocritical theological box of Calvinism is really what is getting in the way of the truth and leading you to call Calypsis a heretic (which is against the rules).
Of course you know such scripture as:
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--A synonym for "receive" is to "accept." Thus your claim is wrong, unless you are one of those extreme KJVO where you believe the KJV corrects the Greek? Is that the case Icon? Is that what you really believe?
"If the KJV was good enough for Paul, it is good enough for me." Is this your belief?
Or does John 1:12 allow for "As many as "accepted" him..." -
This bizarre rejection of "accepting Christ" goes way beyond Calvinism. Even the 1689 Confession, which some here supposedly "hold to" describes:
accepting, receiving, and resting upon him aloneClick to expand...
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