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Preach it, brother Jim.
Did the Son ask the Father to spare Him the agony of the cross?
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by kyredneck, Jul 29, 2009.
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Yes; If it be possible, for His Father to spare him the agony of the cross
23 vote(s)63.9% -
No; He was asking for something other.
13 vote(s)36.1%
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Originally Posted by Jim1999
Not one of the verses in the passages covering the time in Gethsemane speaks of Jesus the Christ. It was Jesus the man. We tend to forget that Jesus was fully man. As a man he was about to suffer the agony of the cross despite his innocence. So now, as a man, he pleads with His heavenly Father IF it be possible,,,,,,,,,IF it be possible.....He already kows it is impossible.....let this cup pass from me. Now Matthew in 26:42 he says, "O my Father, if this cannot pass away, except I drink it, thy will be done."
Even as a whle man, Jesus was prepared to do the will of the Father,,,,,,,even unto death, death of the cross.
Cheers,
Jim
When therefore he said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Jn 18:6 -
preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Perhaps we worry too much about upholding Christ's divinity in light of His evidence humanity. What is at play in the Garden prayer is the tension (and mystery) behind the hypostatic union.
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Indeed, John wrote: (as Jesus was betrayed, arrested and forsaken in the garden) "Jesus (yes, Jesus) therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon him, went forth and said unto them, Who seek you? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus (the man) said unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, was standing with them. When therefore he said unto them, I am he (who, Jesus of Nazareth) they went backward and fell to the ground..........keep reading.....John 18: 2-12
Cheers,
Jim -
"....hypostatic union......" :confused: ??????? :rolleyes:
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By the way, read on to verse 11 where Jesus is yet to drink the cup which his Father had given him.....and this was after the garden and is future,,,,,,,,the cross, death!
Cheers,
Jim -
preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
An extremely important concept Christologically...vital to this discussion. If you don't get the hypostatic union you don't get Christology.
I'd recommend wiki for a good overview. :) -
"......the cup which the Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?...."
Yes, He drank the cup; He endured the cross and gave up the ghost; BUT, His soul was not left to Sheol; Neither did He suffer His holy one to see corruption; His prayer was heard and the cup was removed, the cup of death;
He asked life of thee, thou gavest it him, Even length of days for ever and ever. Ps 21:4 -
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Like the trinity, Christology is not a verse of scripture. It is man trying to piece together the whole of scripture in an effort to understand Jesus the Christ, the God-man. How one can be fully God and fully man at the same time, just as God can be three at once.
There are some mysterious things we will never fully comprehend in the flesh. Too many quote a scripture, quite out of context, to establish a point.
Cheers,
Jim -
preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Well, you might want to start at Hebrews 1 then head on over to John 1 for some principal reading.
Really though, if you're going to ask a serious question like you have in the OP you might want to spend some time reading up on these major doctrinal pillars of Christology. :)
hypostatic comes from the Greek word υποστασεως or "hupostaeos." So it is in the Bible...not that this is, or should be, a requirement for theological terminology. :)
cheerio! -
hypostatic union is the union in Christ of two natures, fully human and fully God.
Jesus hungered as a human, but could multiply the bread and fish because He is God. He would fall asleep in the back of a boat as a man, but speak a word and the storm would cease as God
As a man, He would say on the cross "I thirst", but He never gave up his fully divine nature.
The God-Man died on the cross, but God did not perish there.
just a brief $.02 -
Ok, thanks for the intro on Christology and the hypostatic union. I'm not denying any of that.
I cannot bring myself to believe that He asked for something outside of the will of the Father. I believe that He asked for something that was perfectly within the will of the Father, and was granted it. -
Go back and read my first post....I did quote that Jesus said IF it be possible,,,,again I said IF it be possible.........nevertheless, not my will, but Thine be done....I capitalized the if for a reason.
Cheers,
Jim -
We just differ on the meaning of His words. -
It is always wise to put ammunition in the gun before taking aim and firing it!
Cheers,
Jim -
preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
a. The tension of Christ's mission with His knowledge and fear of what awaited Him...and ultimately the (temporary) separation between Him and God.
b. The beauty of Christ's submission of His will to the will of the Godhead. The Trinitarian teaching is HUGE imho.
Thanks! :thumbs: -
"......the cup DID pass from Him because His prayer was heard.
Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5:7" -
I'm sure that Jesus wasn't looking forward to death on a Roman cross. However, we must remember in the early church, many a christian went to the cross singing with joy. Are we to suppose that Jesus was weaker than these? As terribly as Jesus suffered physically, there have been myriads of others who have suffered far worse physically. Some men would hang on the cross for a week or more before death. I think Jesus biggest most terrifying fear was the wrath of His Father being poured out on Him...not some roman cross.
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Then why was the passing of the cup future in John and after the arrest of Jesus?
Cheers,
Jim
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