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Featured Do the aborted and babies that die . . .

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, May 4, 2021.

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  1. No.

    76.5%
  2. Maybe.

    5.9%
  3. Yes.

    11.8%
  4. No opinion.

    5.9%
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  1. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    So you agree? Is the only point you are making is Paradise was moved and not just emptied? I guess I am missing how this applies to the thought that an unborn person can be given the Holy Spirit after they died like the patriarchs must have?


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  2. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I believe original sin sends most of them to Hell. Why do they die in the womb if not? The wage of sin is death.

    But the upside is, they suffer less than those who live a life of sin well into old age.
     
  3. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    There's an upside of hell? Surely you didn't mean that.

    Why do they die in the womb? They must be sinners there? What about the ones that die because of abortion?

    Should I tell my friends who've had miscarriages that their babies died because they were sinners in the womb/
     
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  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    There are degrees of punishment in Hell. Those who die young have less sin to suffer for.
     
  5. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    So hell isn't painful for them? No fire, no worms, no gnashing of teeth for them? No separation from God for them? No eternal aloneness for them?
     
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  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Study the examples where Jesus teaches different degrees of punishment.
     
  7. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I didn't say there were not differing degrees of punishment.

    I'm saying that you REALLY believe that aborted babies and miscarried babies burn for eternity in a tormented hell?
     
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  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Does God visit the iniquity of the fathers unto the children of the 3rd and 4th generations of those who hate him?
     
  9. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    So every aborted baby and every miscarried baby comes from a lineage of God-haters?

    I have Christian friends - even a Reformed pastor's wife - who suffered a miscarriage? Is there baby in hell. This devastated them. Do you think as a Reformed pastor that he believes his baby is in hell?
     
  10. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but the grammar doesn't give whether that means he will join him in death or in death he will join him in paradise. Can't make a doctrine on that one passage alone.
     
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  11. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Is a chance to hear the Gospel required to not have someone go to Hell?
     
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  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I said, "most", not all. Elect infants who die are redeemed by the blood of Christ.
     
  13. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    If David said he would go to the baby and that means "in death' - then are they both in heaven or both in hell?
     
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I'm saying that it doesn't say either. It just says that he will too die one day. There is nothing in that passage that tells us the final eternal destiny of either David or the baby.
     
  15. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    How do you know if their baby is of the elect? Because it's father is a Calvinist pastor? Are all children born of reformed parents automatically saved because their parents are of the "elect".

    Elect begats elect?

    If so, they don't need Jesus - they only need reformed parents.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Spirit was sent as the Comforter to believers on Earth after Jesus ascension. John 14:16-17, John 16:7. After Paradise was moved to Heaven the ones who are saved are present with the Lord. Compare 2 Corinthians 5:8.
     
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but who is to say there are ANY elect infants?
     
  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Only God knows.
     
  19. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Peter mentions born-again people beyond the reach of the gospel who God accepts.
     
  20. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Actually, what David says is "But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”
     
  21. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'm talking about what that means and what was understood in that culture. There is nothing in that passage that suggests that David knows his child is with God in eternal bliss without reading that into the passage. I'm not saying that isn't what happend, I'm saying you don't get that from this passage.
     
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