**Good post Brian!
MEE
Do we need to have the Holy Ghost to be saved?
Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by ONENESS, Nov 21, 2002.
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Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Furthermore, repentance is included in the act of faith.Click to expand...
You cannot show me anywhere in the Book of Romans where it says we must repent.
So now you cant even show me full bible salvation with the Book of Romans alone b/c no where does it say that we must repent.
</font>Click to expand...
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to REPENTANCE?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
--It is only the goodness of God that leads you to repentance; that will lead you to change your mind about your sinful way of life and turn you to God. But you despise the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering. Because of the hardness of your heart your treasure will be the wrath of God in the day of judgement. As long as you spurn the gospel, faith in his sacrificial blood, and faith alone, you keep adding to that wrath. "God is angry with the wicked every day." You already have "the revelation of the righteous judgement of God." You refuse his revelation to repent of your wickedness in including baptism as a part of your salvation. Repent of this wickedness. Salvation is by grace alone. Accept it by faith alone. God provided it by His grace. It was by grace He died on the cross. It was His grace He loved you and died for you. Accept this sacrifice by faith, lest you treasure up for yourself His wrath in the day of wrath.
Repentance is taught in Romans.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]And so is baptism. I never said that it was not taught. I simply said that it never mentioned it for salvation. -
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
**Good post Brian!Click to expand...
DHK</font>Click to expand...
I have already shown you that.
God bless -
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
**Good post Brian!Click to expand...
DHK</font>Click to expand...
And quite frankly I use the verses you use just as much as you do. -
Originally posted by ONENESS:
Repentance, Water baptisim and the Holy Ghost are all taught in the book of Acts.
I have already shown you that.Click to expand...
The reason is that you take some pet verses of yours out of context in a historical book, the Book of Acts, which doesn't specifically deal with doctrine, as Romans does, and apply them in a way that they were never meant. Taking verses out of context to prove your presupposed point doesn't prove any thing. So take the Book of Romans and demonstrate what the plan of salvation is. You can't do it, because you believe in a works salvation and deny the heart of the gospel:
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph.2:8,9)
You may as well rip those verses out of your Bible because you do not believe in them. Salvation is a work. Your salvation is based on your baptism (and tongues--also a work). Without those works you cannot go to Heaven. You have a works based salvation. You deny the heart of the gospel message.
DHKClick to expand... -
Lorelei:
God revealed it was possible by telling us this in the scriptures. The Bible says the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius as it did on the apostles at the beginning. see Acts 2: 1-4 for details.
The 120 were not baptized in the Spirit as were the 12. See Acts 1: 26; 2:1. All is the antecedent of the apostles mentioned in verse 26. -
DHK:
My previous post was not mean spirted neither did it contain inuendo. It was truthful in every point! Each statement made has been evidenced in previous posts which were mentioned in the latest one. My challenge was a sincere one.
Your attempt to evade the truth by "poisoning the waters" does not shock or surprise me. This is a common debate technique used when one cannot defend his position with the toatlity of the harmonious evidence. Denominationalist do it all the time. I see you are no different.
You refuse to accept the whole new testament. Yet, the inspired David said ,it is the sum of thy words that are truth. Psalms 119:60. You then proceed to criticize me for doing the very thing God endorses.
Funny, you failed your own challenge. You have made more noise than a rusty gate in a wind storm over Ephesinas 2:8,9. Now, it is prove it from the book of Romans only! Which one(s) is it with you, Ephesians or Romans? Is this another one of those math problems. It is Eph. 2:8,9 only, and the book of Romans only! Again, one and one = two. If they are with something else, they are not alone.
Your hermeneutic reminds me of the dog that chased his own tail, he never gets it! -
DHK:
You asked for the plan of salvation in the book of Romans.
1. Romans 1:16. The gospel of Christ is God's power to save through faith. Romans 1;16,17.
2. All men. Romans 3:23;1:18,19.
How?
3. Through repentance. Romans 2:4.
4. Through Confession Romans 10:10.
5. Through Baptism. Romans 6:3-5.
6. Through the gift of God through Christ. Romans 6:23.
8. Through an obedient faith. Romans 16:26.
8. Through His resurrection. Romans 1:3-6.
9. Through his blood. Romans 5: 8-11. -
Originally posted by Frank:
DHK:
You asked for the plan of salvation in the book of Romans.
1. Romans 1:16. The gospel of Christ is God's power to save through faith. Romans 1;16,17.
2. All men. Romans 3:23;1:18,19.
How?
3. Through repentance. Romans 2:4.
4. Through Confession Romans 10:10.
5. Through Baptism. Romans 6:3-5.
6. Through the gift of God through Christ. Romans 6:23.
8. Through an obedient faith. Romans 16:26.
8. Through His resurrection. Romans 1:3-6.
9. Through his blood. Romans 5: 8-11.Click to expand...
DHK -
Originally posted by ONENESS:
You cannot show me anywhere in the Book of Romans where it says we must repent.
So now you cant even show me full bible salvation with the Book of Romans alone b/c no where does it say that we must repent.
I never said that it was not taught. I simply said that it never mentioned it for salvation.Click to expand...
DHKClick to expand... -
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
**Good post Brian!Click to expand...
DHK</font>Click to expand...
The plan of salvation, for the NT Church, starts back from the beiginning of time. (John 1:1)
I don't understand why you want to do away with the book of Acts! I think it is a wonderful book. It is a book of history, as to how the NT Church was born and how the Jews and the Gentiles received salvation.
Romans, as well as the rest of the Bible, also has its place. One has to keep in mind that the Romans had already received salvation. They had repented, been baptized, and recieved the Holy Ghost and were on their way in trying to serve God to the best they knew. Yes, they needed "INSTRUCTIONS" as to what was right and wrong. This is where the Apostle Paul come to their rescue. They may not have been doing everything correctly, but they were still God's children.
I don't understand why you want to do away with water baptism or the infilling of the Holy Ghost. It is a must to at least get into the Bride of Christ.
DHK, I could sit here all day and you would not believe in what I'm trying to get across and that is up to you, as to what you believe, about the Bible, but don't refer to my belief, in the Word, as "heretical or cultic."
MEE -
Originally posted by Frank:
Lorelei:
God revealed it was possible by telling us this in the scriptures.Click to expand...
~Lorelei -
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Repentance, Water baptisim and the Holy Ghost are all taught in the book of Acts.
I have already shown you that.Click to expand...
The reason is that you take some pet verses of yours out of context in a historical book, the Book of Acts, which doesn't specifically deal with doctrine, as Romans does, and apply them in a way that they were never meant. Taking verses out of context to prove your presupposed point doesn't prove any thing. So take the Book of Romans and demonstrate what the plan of salvation is. You can't do it, because you believe in a works salvation and deny the heart of the gospel:
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph.2:8,9)
You may as well rip those verses out of your Bible because you do not believe in them. Salvation is a work. Your salvation is based on your baptism (and tongues--also a work). Without those works you cannot go to Heaven. You have a works based salvation. You deny the heart of the gospel message.
DHK</font>Click to expand...Repentance, Water baptisim and the Holy Ghost are all taught in the book of Acts.Click to expand...
Did you read my post above? Why is so difficult for you to demonstrate the plan of salvation through the Book of Romans, a book that deals exclusively with soteriology, the subject of salvation. If any book in the Bible explains salvation it is Romans. Paul dedicates 16 chapters to it. And you can't find the plan of salvation anywhere in that book. Shame on youClick to expand...
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be savedClick to expand...If any book in the Bible explains salvation it is Romans.Click to expand...
The reason is that you take some pet verses of yours out of context in a historical book, the Book of Acts,Click to expand...
Acts 2:37 Men and brethren WHAT SHALL WE DO?
Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and ye shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Question never changed. Why should the answer?
which doesn't specifically deal with doctrine, as Romans does, and apply them in a way that they were never meant.Click to expand...
Romans 16:17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
What doctrine did they learn?
Acts 2:42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
What was the Apostles Doctrine? Peter had the keys to heaven so I think he had a better understanding than us all.
Acts 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Acts 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
Acts 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
The book of Acts is all about Doctrine. And We get our doctrine from the source.
You can't do it, because you believe in a works salvation and deny the heart of the gospelClick to expand...
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.Click to expand...
You may as well rip those verses out of your Bible because you do not believe in them. Salvation is a work. Your salvation is based on your baptism (and tongues--also a work). Without those works you cannot go to Heaven. You have a works based salvation. You deny the heart of the gospel message.Click to expand...
Your salvation is based on your baptism (and tongues--also a work).Click to expand... -
Acts is a historical book. It's about how the Spirit was dispensed to the believers in a permanant manner for the first time ever. That is why we can't expect to have the same experience that they did. Only those who lived under both the Old and New convenant experienced this transition.
Some want to take thier doctrine from this special time in history and ignore the books that were specifically written to instruct us! Sure the epistles were written to believing churches, but it was teaching them on all areas of life, as well as salvation. Does your church stop teaching or preaching salvation just because you all already know that stuff? Do you never talk about it again?
Paul even had to correct Peter in one of these epistles for teaching something wrong. Paul warned others about following false doctrines and cursed those who preached anything else. Now how could he tell others not to listen to the false teachers without making absolutely certain they understood the truth? The truth about salvation is taught in these books, why do you think it is not? When the Bible says it is "not of works" they didn't mean only to those who have already preformed the work of baptism. When the Bible says that "if Christ is in you, your spirit is alive", it didn't only mean those who received the Spirit after the work of baptism, but those who have the Spirit before baptism won't really be sealed with the Spirit until the day of redemption. These verses really mean what they say whether or not someone has been baptized.
The verses used to start this thread are:
Rom 8:9-11
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
NIVClick to expand...
Do we need the Spirit of God in order to be saved?Click to expand...
Can we have the Spirit of God and NOT be saved?
Read those verses again.
Rom 8:9-11
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
NIVClick to expand...
He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal body. You are raised from the dead already, how can you then be buried after that?
We know that Cornelius was baptized after he had the Spirit, and according to these verses, IF the Spirit is in Him, he is saved!
Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory.
NIVClick to expand...
~Lorelei -
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frank:
DHK:
You asked for the plan of salvation in the book of Romans.
1. Romans 1:16. The gospel of Christ is God's power to save through faith. Romans 1;16,17.
2. All men. Romans 3:23;1:18,19.
How?
3. Through repentance. Romans 2:4.
4. Through Confession Romans 10:10.
5. Through Baptism. Romans 6:3-5.
6. Through the gift of God through Christ. Romans 6:23.
8. Through an obedient faith. Romans 16:26.
8. Through His resurrection. Romans 1:3-6.
9. Through his blood. Romans 5: 8-11.Click to expand...
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]For example, how does Rom.6:3-5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? Or, how does Rom.16:26 teach that an obedient faith is necessary for salvation? Don't just give one of you infamousClick to expand...
It kind of like repentance. The book of Romans never establishes that Repentance is necessary for salvation. But again the rest of the Bible does.
The book of Romans does not tell us that we need to be born again, but John Does. And the book of Acts shows us how we are to be born again. Something else Romans cannot do.
God bless -
Originally posted by Lorelei:
Acts is a historical book. It's about how the Spirit was dispensed to the believers in a permanant manner for the first time ever.
Click to expand...
~Lorelei[/QUOTE]
How did Cornelius know that he had the Spirit of God before he was commanded to be baptized in the name of the Lord?
MEE -
DHK:
The verses and the Bible interpret themselves. Which english word do you not understand? The scriptures provided, if one reads them, and that is a big if with you obviously,simply declare individual elements essential to salvation.
Furthermore, Romans 6:3-6 is a reference to baptism for the remission of sins.The Bible says,in Romans 6:3-6," 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." The old man of sin,vs. 6, has been put to death in baptism, vs.4, it is a type of baptism as Christ received, a covering up or overwhelming in the tomb, whereas we are covered or overwhelmed in water. The sinner is raised from the grave as Christ was in newness of life. Vs. 5,6. The sinner,according to verse 4, is buried IN and Raised from the Same element. The baptism of the spirit is not in view as this would make the Christian none of his because he would not have the spirit having been raised from him. Romans 8:9.The Bible says in Romans 8:9," 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Furthermore,if one makes an attempt to claim it is Holy Spirit baptism under consideration in 6:3-6, he must also along with the text accept the implications of his interpretation. This being he is NONE of his. I do not know anyone who claims to be a Christian would claim such. Moreover, this interpretaion would contradict numerous examples and passages that teach otherwise. Acts 8:30-40;8:12-18,I Pet. 3:21, John 3:3-5,Eph.5:26, Hebrews 10:22.
Finally, Romans 16:26 teaches that obedience and faith are connected. This is affirimed by many other passages of Bible such as John 3:36, Mat. 7:21-24 Luke 6:46,James 2:21-24;2:14. Faith that saves must be active. Hebrews 11:6. This principle has been the same since creation, no exceptions. A faith that does not obey is useless and cannot save. I Pet. 2:7;3:20, II Thes. 1:6-9. In Romans 16:26, Paul reminds us of the necessity of an obedient active faith. This is the only faith that saves. It is for all nations. vs. 26.
Jesus said, to believe , repent , confess and be baptized. The one who wishes to be saved will gladly recieve the word and obey it and be saved. Acts 2;38-41. The Bible teaches the one who fails to have an obedient faith will be lost. Romans 1:16,I Thes. 1:6-9. In Romans 16:26 the phrase for the obedience of faith is written as an Aortist Participle with the Passive Voice. This means something having been done. The Christians at Rome had become so by Having in the past expressed their faith in obedience to the gospel of Christ which includes baptism. Roms. 6:3-6. This participle phrase must also be interpreted by it's contextual meaning. It does not in itself indicate the time of the action. However, when the main verb is temporal, it usually signifies action prior to that of the main verb. Simply put, those who have an obedient faith are saved. They have received the gift of salvation. Romans 6:23. -
MEE,
Brian did make some comments that he would like this thread to stay on topic.
He spoke in tongues as a sign to the Jews, so that they would realize that the Spirit had indeed fallen on the gentiles. As Paul said, tongues were a sign to the Jews.
Acts 10:45-46
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
KJVClick to expand...
Can a person have the Spirit and not be saved?
Since you brought up tongues, answer this:
Can a person speak in tongues as led by the Spirit and not be saved?
According to those in this thread, they are saying that if you have the Spirit and speak in tongues but don't get baptized you still rot in hell. I don't understand how the Spirit could indwell someone who wasn't washed in the blood yet. Do you have a biblical explanation for this phenomena?
~Lorelei -
Originally posted by Lorelei:
MEE,
Brian did make some comments that he would like this thread to stay on topic.
~LoreleiClick to expand...
MEE
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