You're one confused fella'.Of course God predetermined -- that's what predestination means.God does nothing on a whim.Why you non-Cals keeping saying such tommyrot is something to behold.I leave it to God whatever pleases Him.He is the Designer of all.To charge Him with whimsy is blasphemous.
You have no idea what you are taliking about.The Bible is front-and-center for Calvinists.The Word of God has formed our theology.
You really don't know what a Calvinist is.And then,to top it off,you clearly don't know the definition of hyper-Calvinism.
Listen closely.I have repeated this same thing scores of times on the BB --every true believer whether a Calvinist or not -- is elect.Calvinists are not claiming that they alone are His sheep.Got that?Or will you dredge up that nonsense again despite the facts?
A full AMEN to all of that!
It would really be honorable of you to actually quote folks saying the things you attribute to a whole class of folks.
Do you deny the truth of Romans 9:15,18 and Ephesians 1:4;2 Timothy 1:9;2 Thess.2:13;Matt.25:34 and other passages with a mere wave of your mortal hand?!
Now what did I just get through explaining to you about that blasphemous tag of "whim" applied to God!
Better watch your tongue.God is in charge.He does whatever He wishes --whenever He wishes.He determines,He decrees,He establishes,He sets things up and He orders things torn down.He elects some according to His good pleasure.And He foreordains the destiny of the wicked.To deny any of the preceeding is to deny the God of the Bible.
God's love is limited to those whom He chose before the foundation of the world.He has not chosen to give everyone faith and repentance -- only the small floch of which He is the Chief Shepherd.
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The only Rice who knew what he was talking about regarding such subjects were Luther Rice and N.L.Rice.If you look to JRR as your guide in such matters you will be following gross error.
Does God love everyone?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by annsni, Oct 19, 2008.
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MB -
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Rippon acts like that quite often...is this directed to him? ;)
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Some "interesting things" have been said on this thread. Interesting things with which I totally disagree.
Allan informed us that "God's grace is not discriminating."
Benjamin related that The Calvinistic "doctrine of predestination is really hyper-Calvinistic dogma that does the work of satan upon seekers."
MB told us :"If you stay with Scripture you'd have to deny total depravity." -
More "Interesting" Quotes From Posters
MB : "Election doesn't have salvific value."
Allan : "Scripture does not in any manner sate 'all of the drawn ones are given to Christ.' "
Allan : "God reveals truth to all men everywhere." -
I will not be quoting Skypair because he is not here to defend himself. But he sure is quotable! LOL!
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Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son he receiveth. Verse 8 If ye be without chastisement, wherefore all are partakers, then are ye bastards and not son's. No love, No chastisement, simple. St. John 11-3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick. What a strange message to be sent to Christ if he loved the whole world. Why in verse five would it say, Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister,and Lazarus if it was not because they were the elect ? St. John 13-1 Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew his hour was come that he should depart out of the world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. It doesn't say, having loved the world, he loved them unto the end. You people that say that God loves everyone the same, go tell your wife how much you love her and you would die for her, now tell her also that you love every woman in the world with the same love you lover her with and see how well that goes over. What ! you can't do this, you have too, to be Christ like. :love2:
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King James Version (KJV)
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. -
My point is that God gave them over - after - rejecting His Truth and/or Him, not prior to it. In this we note that God was doing something with/towards them (those who will reject Him) via various means (Creation, Conscience, or even to the Gospel itself), and that something is revealing Himself and Truth to them. 2 Thes 2:10-12 states they rejected the gospel that could save them, therefore God sent a strong delusion to believe [their own] lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. -
Earth said: ↑Romans 9:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.Click to expand...
Something that NEEDS to be recognized here is the context of what is being stated. Now there are 2 kinds of election; One is to salvation and One is to Purpose. Note the passage you quote. The context establishes that the election here is NOT to salvation but purpose. - having done NEITHER good nor evil (this wasn't the reason God elected) but the PURPOSE of God - According to election - might stand.
The election here is to Purpose and the purpose is through whom God would bring His people. Israel is God's ELECT people yet not all that people are saved. Now for MORE clarification, go back to the OT and look at the passage being referenced. It specifically states they (Jacob and Esau) are equated AS 2 different NATIONS. When God chose Jacob, He was choosing to Himself a Nation FOR Himself. The very FACT that the OT says God blessed Esau proves also the 'hate' Paul is referencing is not about detesting or rejecting for salvation (why reject Esau if sin is not equated in the picture?) but establishes the other definition of 'hate' (to love less in comparison) applies here. -
annsni said: ↑So does God love everyone? I know He hates sin but what about the sinners?Click to expand...
There is a biblical principle that I would like to reveal:
1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
The principle is that God's love is never static. God's love always - always - is involved in action or a command to action.
Galatians 6:2 talks about love in action. "Bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ."
John 13:34, "A new command I give you: love one another."
Our Lord's command was to do something with that love; to display it in action. Likewise God displays His love and His love is never in vain.
God's love is not exercised in futility. If God truly loves those that are perishing He would not allow them to perish. It has nothing at all to do with not violating the supposed self-autonomous free will of the individual. It has all to do with the nature and character of God. What action of God can be characterized as futile? Of course the answer is none. So, why would God love those who are destined to perish?
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
God endures those that are perishing on behalf of those He has called to salvation. In other words His love is directed towards His sheep; those that are called to salvation. -
Herald said: ↑I am late to party on this question but I want to weigh in.
There is a biblical principle that I would like to reveal:
1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
The principle is that God's love is never static. God's love always - always - is involved in action or a command to action.
Galatians 6:2 talks about love in action. "Bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ."
John 13:34, "A new command I give you: love one another."
Our Lord's command was to do something with that love; to display it in action. Likewise God displays His love and His love is never in vain.
God's love is not exercised in futility. If God truly loves those that are perishing He would not allow them to perish. It has nothing at all to do with not violating the supposed self-autonomous free will of the individual. It has all to do with the nature and character of God. What action of God can be characterized as futile? Of course the answer is none. So, why would God love those who are destined to perish?
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
God endures those that are perishing on behalf of those He has called to salvation. In other words His love is directed towards His sheep; those that are called to salvation.Click to expand...
6. The Westminster Standards
The term "offer" or "free offer" is used in the Westminster Standards (Westminster Confession of Faith VII/III; Larger Catechism Ans. 32, 63, 68; Shorter Catechism Ans. 31 and 86).
The Larger Catechism puts it beyond doubt that the term is used in reference to non-elect persons; "...who, for their wilful neglect and contempt of grace offered to them, being justly left in their unbelief, do never truly come to Jesus Christ" (Larger Catechism Ans. 68).Attempts have been made of late to rob the term "free offer" of much of its real meaning, as if it meant no more that "present" or "exhibit" (see H. Hanko, Protestant Reformed Journal Nov. 1986, pp. 16f). The intended meaning is far more than this. Anyone wishing to catch the true meaning of these terms and the general outlook of the Puritan period should read the "Sum of Saving Knowledge" drawn up by David Dickson and James Durham and often printed along with the Westminster Confession and Catechisms, no doubt due to its claim to be "A Brief Sum of Christian Doctrine contained in the Holy Scriptures, and holden forth in the foresaid Confession of Faith and Catechisms". The section on "Warrants to Believe" and its handling of Isaiah 55/1-5 and 2 Cor. 5/19-21 are especially noteworthy and the many references to God's promises, offers of grace, sweet invitations, loving requests etc.Click to expand...
For instance how about J. I. Packer's view:
James I. Packer (born 1926):
God in the gospel expresses a bona fide wish that all may hear, and that all who hear may believe and be saved
(Celebrating the Saving Work of God, p. 151)
God's love is revealed in the universal invitations of the gospel, whereby sinful humans are invited to turn in faith and repentance to the living Christ who died for sins and are promised pardon and life if they do. 'God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.' 'God is love (agape). This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.' And God in the gospel expresses a bona fide wish that all may hear, and that all who hear may believe and be saved. This is love in active expression.Click to expand...
15. Lastly, The terms upon which he offers peace and pardon and eternal life to offending creatures, are the highest proofs and evidences imaginable of the wonderful goodness of God, notwithstanding that so great multitudes do, finally, refuse them and perish. And to this purpose, it should be considered, that the apostle speaks of this as matter of transport more than doubt, and that it did need more to be admired than evinced. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life," John 3:16. The silence that is there used is more speaking than any speech could be. He so loved the world, at so stupendous a rate. It is a very speaking silence that he doth not tell us how great that love is; he leaves us to understand it to be altogether inexpressible, that he should give his only Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish — and whereas, men have an impotency to the exercise of that faith that is requisite to their attaining salvation, what is that impotency? It stands only in an affected blindness and obduracy of will; that which they call moral impotency. Now moral doth not excuse, but aggravate the faultiness. No man takes moral impotency to be an excuse, but a high aggravation. As if a man is guilty of murder, and he brings this to excuse him, — "I could not but kill that man because I hated him, I did so violently hate him that I could not but do this unto him." That moral impotency (his extreme hatred) aggravates the crime, that that made it to be done, made it so highly faulty, and so much the more heinous, that it is done. He is not less guilty, but the more, by how much the more his hatred was predominant and prevalent in the case. Why, so this disaffection to God and to Christ and to holiness (which is impotency), is an impotency seated in the will, and the ignorance hath its root, it ariseth and proceeds from thence, that is, that men are "alienated from the life of God, through the ignorance that is in them, and because of the blindness of their hearts." A blindness which they love, a blindness which they choose, as it is, Eph. 4:18. Whereupon, all their misery is self-created. The miseries wherein men are involved in this world, which make it another hell to them (a hell on this side hell), and the miseries of the final and eternal state, they are all self-created; that is, they do arise from a fixed, inveterate malignity against the Author of their being, and that very nature itself, whereof their own, at first, was an imitation. An amazing thing, but it were impossible, if men did love God, to be miserable. Loving him is enjoying him, and enjoying him is felicity, if any thing be, or can be. The image of men's future miseries you have in their present state. What is it that makes the world such a hell as it is, but men's hatred of God and of one another? For (as was said) if there were no contention at all among men on earth, but who should love God best, and one another best, and who should do most for him, and for one another, what a heavenly life should we live here, a heaven on this side heaven: but the hell on this side hell, is only this, that men's hearts are filled with enmity against God, and one another; and from this malignity proceeds their infidelity, that they do not unite to God in Christ when they are called to it; which is no excuse, but an aggravation. But, in the mean time, that is the most wonderful goodness that can be thought, that such overtures should be made to men, God having given his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.Click to expand...
LET ME STATE HERE - I am not calling anyone a Hyper-Cal.. I'm only showing what Calvinists have stated and reference this view 'among' some of the Hyper views (or those not in line with the historical mainline teachings)
here is another one from CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) which is also Calvinistic states:
Hyper-Calvinism
The Hyper-Calvinist emphasizes the sovereignty of God to such an extent that man's human responsibility is denied. In actuality, Hyper-Calvinism is a rejection of historic Calvinist thought. Hyper-Calvinism denies that the gospel call applies to all, and/or denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, and/or denies the gospel offer to the non-elect, and/or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal, and/or denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," and/or denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect. Calvinists do not agree with the Hyper-Calvinists.Click to expand...
Of course there are disagreements in the ranks, but it stands out quite clearly there must be something to the position even if you don't agree. -
Allan said: ↑...establishes the other definition of 'hate' (to love less in comparison) applies here.Click to expand...
These threads are so sad…
That is all...
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