I'm having difficulty following your line of thought and your question...it is probably because it is 2:15 AM here in the Eastern Time Zone.
But, let me answer one thing. The KJV uses the word "the regeneration." In the Matthew context, it is talking about a new world. Certainly the word can mean "regeneration," as it does in Titus 3. The word itself, in Greek, is palin (again) genesis (beginning), meaning new beginning. The meaning of this word in the Matthew passage is determined by context (as are most meanings).
So, as for this usage, I don't think Christ is necessarily talking about His resurrection (as you may have implied in your previous post).
So, please, for my sake, refine your question for me.
Blessings,
The Archangel
"Does Regeneration Precede or Follow Faith" part 2
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Archangel, Dec 10, 2010.
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
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The confusion is that regeneration is not defined by most Calvinists as life. Rather, it is a capacity to do spiritual things. It is the empowerment of a spirit to come alive or awaken, and perform things in a spiritual direction, in a Christ-ward direction. In that sense, regeneration has to precede faith, in keeping with that definition. An ability to perform an action must exist prior to that action.
The other confusing thing, is that many writers of the past would also use the word regeneration to refer to the process of renewing the person to Christ-likeness. Care must be taken when quoting such writers, to dicern which definition of regeneration they mean.
Blessings! -
When y'all figure this one out--send me a PM.
...Bob -
Gospel of our Salvation
Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[Or in; also in verses 19 and 20] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
James 5:
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Isaiah 52:7]
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[Isaiah 53:1] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
John 5:25
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
I believe God made us the messenger of Christ and His word and the message brings man to the state of Adam. To believe God don't eat from the tree and live or now trust in His Son and live or not and be condemned. It is simple, but men complicate it. Christ word regenerates, renews if we reject it we reject life. Those who didn't trust in Christ was cut out of what they were already in and those who trusted in Christ remained and those who were not in it from the beginning was included when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. The elect is simply those who trust in Christ. -
In my opinion, the logical (not chronological) ordo salutis is that regeneration causes faith (read enables faith). -
Simple
God didn't incline anyone's heart to believe, He simply placed two roads that was there from the beginning to believe God and live or don't and die.
Deuteronomy 30:
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live -
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
Also, what Paul is talking about here is something the Old Testament Law could never do--change people. The washing of regeneration in Titus 3:5 is how He saved us. God's work in regenerating us is the means by which He brings us to Himself and saves us (and of course Paul mentions Christ as Savior in the subsequent verses).
I hope that helps to clarify.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
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Nevertheless, if you agree that an act of God has to occur first, so as to spiritually awaken and empower a person to believe, then that puts you outside of the camp of the Pelagian. The options now are Arminian or Calvinist. The Arminian will see salvation as now an available option laid before us, to which our efforts will either work alongside of God to accomplish the task, or will reject God's efforts and perish. The Calvinist will see salvation as having already begun in those who are awakened, and as a work that God will accomplish by His own hand, bringing that implanted seed of faith to fruition, not allowing any to perish.
Blessings! -
Your statement above that I made bold I assume you mean regeneration as in a new world (age) and if so would the following not be the age you are speaking of? Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world,(age) and the resurrection from the dead,
If so is it not resurrection/regeneration that makes it a new world (age)?
I know what you mean about last night I'm central time and I went to bed about the time you made that post. -
1 Cor. 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
And...no, I don't think it is necessarily a resurrection/regeneration that makes the world a new world or age. Part of my hang-up is that the text, so far as I can tell, does not intend to speak of what you are saying.
I'll keep looking, though, and I hope you'll keep up this conversation.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,(that is the washing in his blood) much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.(That is his resurrected/regenerated life)
Ephesians 2:8 says the same thing. For by grace are ye saved through faith.
You just have to understand that it is the faith of Jesus Christ that saves you. Paul says this many, many times in his letters. -
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: -
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