Even before all of the Apostles had died even?
Doesn't Hebrews 2:3 Show The Sign Gifts Had Already Ceased?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Oct 26, 2012.
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Heb 2:1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
Heb 2:3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
Heb 2:4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. (NASB)
Nope, it doesn't say anything of the sort. The point being made in this section of Scripture is Christ spoke concerning salvation. A key aspect of that is the He was God on the flesh. The people who witnessed, heard, what He said told others. The Father also testified through miraculous events to prove that Christ is who He claimed to be.
This reminds us of what Jesus said in John:
Joh 5:26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Joh 5:27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Joh 5:30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Joh 5:31 "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.
Joh 5:32 "There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
Joh 5:33 "You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth.
Joh 5:34 "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
Joh 5:35 "He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
Joh 5:36 "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
Joh 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
Joh 5:38 "You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
Joh 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Joh 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. (NASB) -
Already done deed, why need those kind of sign gifts any more, as their purpose was now gone? -
I don't see that anywhere in the passage.
Let's look at Ephesians 4:
Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (NASB)
1. This is after Christ ascended back to Heaven.
2. Has verse 13 occurred? No, therefore those spiritual offices must continue. If they must continue then they must also be empowered by the Spirit.
Look at the lists in 1 Cor 12, Rom 12, and 1 Peter 4. Can we really say that the Church no longer needs healing? Word of Wisdom? Words of Knowledge? Teaching? Pastors? Prophecy (defined purely as speaking the message of God)? I would say we most surely do need these as none of us would be saved apart from it. How can we have eyes to see and ears to hear (spiritually speaking) without them? How can we receive the seed firmly implanted without them? -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
It is in the passage if you understand it correctly. The apostolic witness{those having heard the Lord] was confirmed...by signs and wonders.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
God bore them (the apostles) witness with signs and wonders and miracles and the gifts of the Holy Ghost.
I am not adding anything. God bore the apostle witness. It is evident that we don't have the apostles today, and the witness of these signs and wonders, etc., were to bear them not us witness. We don't need it. We have the Word of God.
Take heed to the words of Christ.
An evil and adulterous generation seek after a sign, but I say unto you that there shall no sign be given unto them but the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Who seeks after a sign??
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
--Signs and wonders were the sign of an apostle.
No more apostles; no more signs and wonders. It is really that simple. -
I do not seek after a sign, do you? I seek God! -
Believing in the gifts of the gifts of the Spirit--that they are operative today--is the same as looking for signs and wonders. Yes, you look for signs and wonders, whether or not want to admit it. -
NO, I am not or have I ever sought a sign...as a matter of fact I fought against them for years..just as you are now! -
It is a sign to the unbelieving Jew that judgment would come, as it did in the first century.
It is a sign to authenticate the apostles and their message; it did and they are now dead.
It was a sign, but is no longer a sign for it has ceased. Anyone who seeks to speak in tongues seeks after a sign. You speak in tongues, so you say. You seek a sign. Yet, you know the tongues you speak are not the Biblical gift of tongues or languages. Otherwise you would know the language you were speaking in.
Think about it carefully. It worked this way. If Paul went to a foreign nation like Spain, then, not knowing that language the Lord would give him that gift to speak in that language. He would know that he would be speaking in Spanish. The Lord would give him the "entire package." He would be able to speak it, think in it, use the grammar properly, the syntax, have a very good vocabulary, etc. God would miraculously give him the ability to speak in that language. He would know he would be speaking in Spanish and would be able to think in the language that he was speaking. That was the gift of tongues/languages.
You can't do that. You don't have the gift of tongues. -
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IF you can prove a case for NT offices of BOTh Apostles/prophets still opena nd finctioning, would prove your case, but you cannot from the Bible do that! -
THe original 12 apostles were here when Jesus walked the earth, right?
Do you believe that the office of an apostle was given as a ministry to the church after Jesus died and resurrected? -
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