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Dreams

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, May 16, 2019.

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  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps you may recognize this condition in particular relating to the Jews:
    But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
    If such is the condition of those charged with carrying the very “oracles of God,” how much worse condition is found of those who are also unregenerate.
     
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    It would seem you are providing undocumented claims to refute undocumented claims. Or are you establishing yourself the arbitrary truth discerner?
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    My sister was cerebral palest.... how could she hear and understand
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There is revelation and there are revelations. Dreams or visions void of revelation? If one understands that all of God's word is a form of revelation. Revelation 19:10. Luke 24:44. Matthew 4:4.
     
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  5. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Yes, especially given to those facing severe persecution and trials.

    As the precious 'Geneva Bible' notes at Acts 7:55, regarding Stephen and other Martyrs' glimpses into heaven:

    55 ¹But he being full of the holy Ghost, looked steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus ²standing at the right hand of God,
    ¹The nearer that the Martyrs approach to death, the nearer they beholding Christ, do rise up even into heaven.

    https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/GenevaBible.pdf

    geneva1599 stephen - Copy.jpg
     
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  6. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Such as this account involving Ann Gifford and her husband Andrew who was one of the signers of the vaunted 1689 London Baptist Confession, prior to one of his imprisonments for preaching the Gospel:

    https://reformedbaptista.wordpress.com/2015/02/02/the-women-behind-the-1689-mrs-gifford

    "the night before his apprehension....His wife dreamed that he arose to go out to preach according to his appointment; but upon opening the door, the very first step he took was up to his knees in snow...that he was seized by two particular men, whose names she mentioned, and brought to the Sun Tavern, that then was without Lawford’s Gate, and there confined in a dining room, being placed behind a particular table in it; and one of them, by main force, held him down by leaning on his right shoulder and the other on his left."

    "It made such an impression that she awakened with the fright, and told him of it....They arose, and upon opening the door to the yard, they found there had fallen a great snow since they went to bed, with a severe frost, that had driven up to the house, so that the first step indeed was up to his knees....he was taken according to her dream, and every particular circumstance of it was the next day exactly fulfilled."
     
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  7. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    I don't need to document what missionaries have told me. Most of these missionaries are in areas of the world that are hostile to the gospel and I am not going to name names or locations given that I don't want to jeopardize their lives.
     
  8. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    That was only a partial hardening and not what Calvinists refer to when they talk about the inability of some unregenerate to hear/obey the Gospel. Nothing in the Bible supports this added concept of inability.

    And besides, the Bible doesn't use the word "regenerated" to refer to some intermediary state between being unsaved and saved.
     
  9. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    I did not attribute that value to the II Tim. 3:16-17. But the Bible does meet all of the needs of the human heart in that it addresses those needs and how God fulfills them all.

    The Gospel is understandable to anyone. The deeper truths that Paul was actually talking about in 1Cor. 2 are not understandable.



    The text doesn't say the Holy Spirit is poured out on the whole world. The "pouring out" part is the part you are adding to the text.


    It doesn't validate any modern reports at all. It isn't meant to validate them. It addresses an experience in Scripture. It is not forming a doctrine.



    You have not provided any information at all. And this is not a rabbit trail. I have never had a dream that the Holy Spirit ever "worked" in.
     
  10. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    But that is not what I am referring to. Those whose disabilities hinder their understanding isn't what we are talking about. I simply referred to the Calvinist claim that we are all born unable to hear the voice of God until God "regenerates" the elect. The Bible supports no such doctrine.
     
  11. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    What exactly does the Bible teach? I hear all the non-Cals rage against total depravity, what is the viable alternative?
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    My rule is to never discount the work of God in the live of another person. If they say God spoke to them, I'll accept it until what was said does not line up. If they dreamed a dream or saw a vision, then who am I to question their experience....until it does not line up with Scripture.
     
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  13. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    I am not against teaching that unregenerate humanity is depraved I am speaking against the added element of "inability" that Calvinists add to the concept. That "inability" is not contained in Scripture.
     
  14. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    If someone is having a vision or a dream and the vision or dream is saying exactly what the Bible says, then what is the point of the dream/vision? If the information is already in the Bible and available, then the vision was unnecessary.

    In the Bible dreams and visions were revelatory, they imparted previously unknown information that wasn't previously known or available. There was a purpose to dreams and visions because they did not have it revealed to them in Scripture. Dreams and visions were not teaching tools, per se. Ananias in Acts 9 would not have been able to line his vision up with Scripture, neither would Peter, and others because their visions contained new information not previously revealed.

    Since we have the Bible and it is complete, we don't need visions or dreams to tell us what we already have revealed to us in the Bible.
     
  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    A totally depraved person is indeed unable.
     
  16. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    But the Bible doesn't say that. That's my point. "Inability" is a Calvinist teaching; it is not a biblical teaching. It is something that Calvinists are adding to the Scriptures and as such, is a false teaching.
     
  17. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.
     
  18. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    That does not speak to the issue of inability. Nothing in the entire Romans 3:9-20 passage says anything about an unsaved person having an inability to hear or respond to the Gospel prior to "regeneration." In addition, the Bible doesn't speak of any kind of regenerated state that stands as intermediate condition between being totally depraved and saved. Again, all of that is Calvinistic, but not biblical.
     
  19. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    no one understands; no one seeks for God.
     
  20. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    But that is not due to an inability to hear or obey the Gospel. It comes from sinful rebellious condition. Why would God waste His time, in the OT, calling out to unregenerate Israel to return to Him if they were unable to hear Him and respond? Why send prophets to a people who did not have the ability to respond and obey?

    Paul didn't say they don't understand because they are unable. He didn't say they don't seek God because they are unable to seek God until God allows them to do so. My point is that you cannot produce a passage that says anything about a person being unable to respond to God unless God makes it possible for them to respond.
     
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