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Quote:Westminister Confession:
Larry -- this is fatally flawed!
First, it says God gives them spiritual vision by hearing the word and Spirit. Problem is, it is circuitous logic. They, according as I read it, can't hear the Word and Spirit until they are enlightened and they can't be enlightened until they hear. The missing, unidentified link is BELIEF. Hear -- believe -- enlightened. (IF He calls by His Word and Spirit that they can't hear, how can they be enlightened by the Word and Spirit??).
Second, there's your New Covenant (underlined) right there in the Confession! "Physician, heal thyself!"
Next -- faith before repentance. That's good! Faith received passively -- then the "will" to obey. That's "unconditional" alright! Wish we all could be that "lucky!" Saved before obedience. Just imagine!
"Elect infants?!" Be still! IOW, it is granted by the church on God's behalf to declare this?! How gracious of the church! Understand, Larry, the doctrine of "unconditional election" is sustained only by the notion of "elect," saved infants who did NOTHING for their own salvation. It's just Calvinist's answer to a very troubling question they foisted upon themselves: "where do dead infants go according to the (also flawed) doctrine of total depravity and sin guilt in Adam?" "Hoisted on their own petard," as they say!
And we can just leave the heathen alone, I guess. Like free will has always averred of Calvinism -- if they're "elect," why go? Paul's words in Rom 10:13-15 notwithstanding, God'll manage to draw them somehow. The Confession says so, right?
Larry, I almost hate you offer this up. I'd rather you hadn't. It was a primitive response to a confession offered up by the Armenians (that was probably just as flawed, BTW). They were both reflective of the doctrines of men, "striving over words to no profit."
skypair
"Effectual Call"
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Feb 26, 2007.
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pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
And what makes you so sure that Paul is speaking of eternal salvation of the soul unto glory in Romans 10:15 ?
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This is the nub of Westminister Confession -- this "Word and Spirit" by which the "effectual call" comes. It appears to me a similar paradigm as Catholics have for infants being baptized for original sin, their sin guilt of Adam. It could very well be that Calvinists baptize their "elect" infants with this same thought in mind. When the priest reads the Word over the infant (who obvously cannot comprehend a thing), Catholics believe that the Spirit takes away their "original sin."
That is the "passive role" the WC seems to describe for the "elect" during the "effectual call." Saved and regenerated as if by magic. Then that "elect," "discovering" that he/she is being "called," joins the church and begins his/her journey of sanctification therein.
Since such an one is "elect" already, there is no need of praying for salvation. Same as it is hard for a Baptist to admit he/she has gone to a Baptist church for years but was never saved in the manner God called for, it is near impossible for a Reform/Calvinist member to do so seeing the thinking there is that we do nothing in salvation -- we are passive in our own salvation.
Is that a decent rendering of "effectual calling?" Without hearing, the "elect" are mystically "renewed" unto discernment of the Word and Spirit?
skypair -
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Same answer as for the Cist view. That is, we witness because we might be/are the means by which God has chosen to save Bob.
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Hey all, :wavey:
Can we do "start overs?" :laugh:
Apparently I didn't make this simple enough (what with having to study the Westminister Covenant which itself is quite confusing). Let's reduce the script down to the pertinent words -- "effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God."
"Effectual call" is defined here as
1) being called
2) by the Word and Spirit (which one cannot hear yet)
3) to grace and to salvation by Christ
4) which grace and salvation then enlightens, regenerates, our minds to understand, spiritually and savingly, the things of God. Don't miss the point -- the WC says that grace and salvation enlighted the mind to hear in the Calvinist understanding of the word "hear." Grace and salvation precede hearing.
I'm just taking what the WC says in the order it says and discovering, just like 1Cor 2:14 says, that at the time of my "effectual call" I cannot "understand spiritual things" yet but I CAN be given grace and salvation by which I will be able to understand them.
So to me, this sounds like the Word and Spirit "with my name on it" :D is preached -- saves me without anything "done" on my part -- then, for the first time, I am enabled to understand spiritual things because I am regenerated, born again.
It wouldn't be so disturbing to me if I didn't think this is what Reform actually teaches. That is, IF you can hear the "Word and Spirit," THEN you are, in fact, already saved/elect. What would be the point of repenting and receiving?
My observation is that most Reform church members DO assume that they are "elect"/saved because they can "hear" spiritual things. This proves, in their minds, that they are regenerated, born again, else they wouldn't understand spiritual things, right? If you are saved already, do you need to be saved again?
Some of you have formulated the WC as you believe it to be -- not as it is stated in the text IMO. That's actually good but you shouldn't be debating with me unless you can show me that the "elect but uncalled" can hear before they are actually regenerated/enlightened/saved.
skypair -
Notice there's a colon before enlightening the mind. That means that everything after the colon is a list of what the call itself accomplishes. These are the things that the call to grace and salvation accomplishes in the person being called. It's not a list of the order of salvation, but a list of the things that occure with the call to salvation. Salvation itself would occur as a result of those things.
But you can't ignore the punctuation. It isn't a list of the order of salvation, so you can't read it that way.
Personally, I've never heard a single person in my whole life say they know they are saved because they can hear spiritual things.
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So, with the proper punctuation, we can see that the WC does not say that 'salvation and grace' enlightened the mind. Instead, it is is merely the second step in the process. The enlightening is not being causally linked to grace and salvation. Instead, the calling (which is to grace and salvation) and the enlightening are both from God.
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Since Grace is through faith I'd like to know how it can be otherwise?
MB -
skypair -
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Secondly, even if the text *did* say that, it still doesn't give an order of events and you put forth. Your logic of 'having to be saved before being able to hear' simply is not present either explicitly or implicitly in the text of the WC. Again, where are you getting this from? Please explain your reasoning in detail and we can walk through it step by step. -
dw,
This is where I get the Calvinist's notion that man is passive in salvation -- next paragraph
Where do I get the notion that Calvinists believe they are saved passively - without the repentant response that Baptists have?
They never have invitations to salvation neither in church. Their doctrine says man is passive -- nothing he CAN do. Boice, Sproul, and others claim that even belief is "works." No works can be done unto salvation -- ergo, Calvinists don't know how of their own volition to be saved.
skypair -
Look at para. II. Do you see the same thing there? Man is "passive" and then suddenly born again/renewed? That's what Baptists call renewed - born again/saved.
1) (a) "call" -- gospel
2) (b) "to grace and salvation" OR "enlightening them ... savingly" -- born again/regenerated/ saved
3) (c) "enable them to answer" OR "to understand things of God" - direct from 1Cor 2:14 -- already saved "spiritual man"
4) (d) "to that which is good," "drawing to Christ," "come freely" and "to enbrace grace" -- sanctification (a term Calvin could not distinguish from justification, BTW). It means growing in grace, the Christian walk
Look, I don't want you and brutus and PL and whoever to think that I am not willing to look at it from YOUR texts and show you what I see. You may not define the terms the same as I do, especially if you don't agree that one must be saved to be "regenerated." But I really can't see someone being born again/enlightened/regenerated/renewed as not being saved. That is just contrary to John 3 totally!
skypair -
As I have said before and will say again, your attacks against Cism are largely based on basic misundertandings of their teachings. Thats understandable at first, but eventually they become simply strawmen when you have been told clearly where you err in your understanding. If you wish to disagree with Cism thats fine, but please stop with the strawmen -
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
MB -
MB, are you trying to say the only way we can receive grace is for us to reach out to God first?
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This is a great question, but, it ignores the fact that there must be something to have faith in. "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". Without the word of God, there would be nothing to have faith in. (Except for maybe a chair, an airline pilot, a bridge, etc., but those things can't save you.)
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