?? Not following you there. Please elucidate.
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
How can faith come with justification if we are justified by? "By" faith indicates that faith must precede justification.
Where is this described in Scripture?
Again, Scripture please.
"Effectual Call"
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Feb 26, 2007.
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skypair -
While I am thinking about it, here is a verse which used faith/believe interchangably as a noun/verb expressing the same concept:
Rom 4:3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Abraham's believing was counted for righteousness. one's faith is counted as righteousness.
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1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
MB -
There is an old hymn that expresses it so beautifully:
Amidst the wealth of Bible stores,
And gems the eye of faith explores,
None with such joy and comfort fill,
As Jesus’ cov’nant SHALL and WILL.
Why are not feeble saints destroyed?
Why are not promises made void,
And sin my utter ruin proved?
His SHALLS and WILLS remain unmoved.
The weak become both strong and bold,
While on these words faith keeps her hold;
Mountains must melt and waves be still,
Obeying Jesus’ SHALLS and WILLS.
These potent words subdued my heart,
And made the love of sin depart—
Christ said, ‘My purpose I’ll fulfill,
You SHALL submit, and reign I WILL.’
These words a sov’reign power conveyed,
Confirmed each promise He had made;
My IFS and BUTS I laid aside,
And now in SHALLS and WILLS confide. -
What skypair is arguing is the belief and faith are distinct things and that it is the 'belief test' which results in faith. I am asking her to show in Scripture where the concept of belief (not faith - you and I would see this as being the same thing, but she is making a distinction between the two) being tested is present.
You and I agree on this - it is skypair with whom you disagree. -
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MB said:dwmoeller1 said:You aren't reading what skypair and I are discussing. I said NOTHING about faith not being tested. In fact, part of my argument is grounded on the fact that faith IS tested. [\quote]
I'm not convinced you understand what Skypair believes at all. Skypair stated that we are saved by Christ. to which you replied;
So Him being called our Lord and Savior has nothing to do with it I suppose?Click to expand...
Might we use that phrase in our own way? Certainly. But we are discussing what Scripture says and how it uses the concepts in question.
Are you a Calvinist that believes that he is saved by his own faith? I thought I was in agreement with Calvinist about who's faith we are justified by. Our belief in Christ is why we are granted His faith. His faith is the only faith that is righteous enough to save.Click to expand...
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This is how and why we aren't saved by what we do but by what Christ does.Click to expand...
As I said I don't think you understand what Skypair believesClick to expand...
skypair said:Definitely not. BELIEF comes before salvation, but not faith. Faith is the gift given to believers.
Holy Spirit indwelling is what Dr. Rogers called, our "engagement ring" that soon we will be married to Christ in heaven! We get that along with faith the moment we believe of Christ for salvation.
No, faith and justification ("righteousness of God") are given by God at the same time.Click to expand...
Simply faith is the action that uses belief.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
dwmoeller1 said:MB said:I simply state again: Scripture never says we are saved by Christ. Thus, since the discussion is about particular definitions of words (ie. 'by') and since Scripture never uses the concept of 'saved by Christ' in its wording, I must reject her assertion that, Scripturally speaking, we are saved by Christ.
Might we use that phrase in our own way? Certainly. But we are discussing what Scripture says and how it uses the concepts in question.Click to expand...
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
There is no other way and believing in Him is what gives us the peace with the Father once we have peace then we can wear the righteousness of Christ
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
dwmoeller1 said:Scripture says we are saved by faith. We agree that this faith is not our own. What Scripture doesn't say is that we are 'saved by Christ'. Is this splitting hairs? Possibly...but since skypairs argument relies on splitting of hairs (ie. distinction between belief and faith), I have no choice but to split hairs along with her to get at the meat of her argument.Click to expand...
dwmoeller1 said:No disagreement there. Again, I submit that you haven't really followed the true gist of the conversation. Do you hold that belief and faith are essentially synonomous?Click to expand...
dwmoeller1 said:If so, then you should be disagreeing with skypair and not myself. It is skypair who claims that belief leads to salvation (not faith) and that faith comes with/after salvation.Click to expand...
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
dwmoeller1 said:So, do you agree with skypair?Click to expand...
dwmoeller1 said:Faith is not an action, it is noun.Click to expand...
FAITH, n. [L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey. In the Greek Lexicon of Hederic it is said, the primitive signification of the verb is to bind and draw or lead, as signifies a rope or cable. But this remark is a little incorrect. The sense of the verb, from which that of rope and binding is derived, is to strain, to draw, and thus to bind or make fast. A rope or cable is that which makes fast. Heb.]
MB
Click to expand... -
dwmoeller1 said:While I am thinking about it, here is a verse which used faith/believe interchangably as a noun/verb expressing the same concept:
Rom 4:3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.Click to expand...
Abraham's believing was counted for righteousness. one's faith is counted as righteousness.Click to expand...
What would you say that Abraham's initial "belief" was? Wasn't it to pick up and leave Ur? But surely that was not the gospel -- that was as the heathen in Rom 1who believe the God revealed to them and obey, the "belief test," right? A covenant offered and received in Abraham's case.
I missed where it mentioned anything about regeneration. What Scripture establishes that 'sealed by the HS' is the same thing as 'regeneration'?Click to expand...
I am not following where the passage mentions the 'belief test' you described. Is confessing with the mouth the 'belief test'?Click to expand...
I find that Calvinists are much less certain of their "election" than I am of my salvation. And they give nebulous proofs like "holy living" or "Lordship salvation" or other evidences that could be "acted out" (washing the outside of the cup) not realizing or maybe are still realizing that the inside is still filthy. Look at Laodicea, dw.
skypair
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