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Election And Predestination In Complete Harmony

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Apr 12, 2017.

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  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    In another thread a member bought up the subject of Predestination which to me works hand in hand with the doctrine of Election... You can't have one without the other... We all know what a destination is... We set our mind to go somewhere and we go... So God in his Loving, Mercy and Grace predetermined NOT BY ANYTHING WE HAVE DONE OR WILL DO... Elected or as I like to say it Gave those predestined to his Son Jesus Christ to save... I remember a comment by T.C. on here in another post stating our names are written in the Lambs Book Of Life... Being that we are Predestinated and Elected before the foundation of the world did we put our own name in the book?... BTW to my understanding of scripture my name is written in the sinless blood of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who died and was resurrected for me and ALL his blood bought children... The following article is one by R.C. Sproul followed by the The Westminester Confession Faith 1646 on God's Eternal Decree... As scripture says... "Consider what I say and the Lord giveth thee understanding in all things"!... Brother Glen

    The Reformed view of election, known as unconditional election, means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save.
    In the book of Romans, we find a discussion of this difficult concept. Romans 9:11-13 reads: “And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ As it is written, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’” Here the Apostle Paul is giving his exposition of the doctrine of election. He deals with it significantly in Romans 8, but here he illustrates his teaching of the doctrine of election by going back into the past of the Jewish people and looking at the circumstances surrounding the birth of twins—Jacob and Esau. In the ancient world, it was customary for the firstborn son to receive the inheritance or the patriarchal blessing. However, in the case of these twins, God reversed the process and gave the blessing not to the elder but to the younger. The point that the Apostle labors here is that God not only makes this decision prior to the twins’ births, He does it without a view to anything they would do, either good or evil, so that the purposes of God might stand. Therefore, our salvation does not rest on us; it rests solely on the gracious, sovereign decision of God.

    God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. —R.C. Sproul
    This doesn’t mean that God will save people whether they come to faith or not. There are conditions that God decrees for salvation, not the least of which is putting one’s personal trust in Christ. However, that is a condition for justification, and the doctrine of election is something else. When we’re talking about unconditional election, we’re talking in a very narrow confine of the doctrine of election itself.
    So, then, on what basis does God elect to save certain people? Is it on the basis of some foreseen reaction, response, or activity of the elect? Many people who have a doctrine of election or predestination look at it this way. They believe that in eternity past God looked down through the corridors of time and He knew in advance who would say yes to the offer of the gospel and who would say no. On the basis of this prior knowledge of those who will meet the condition for salvation—that is, expressing faith or belief in Christ—He elects to save them. This is conditional election, which means that God distributes His electing grace on the basis of some foreseen condition that human beings meet themselves.

    Unconditional election is another term that I think can be a bit misleading, so I prefer to use the term sovereign election. If God chooses sovereignly to bestow His grace on some sinners and withhold His grace from other sinners, is there any violation of justice in this? Do those who do not receive this gift receive something they do not deserve? Of course not. If God allows these sinners to perish, is He treating them unjustly? Of course not. One group receives grace; the other receives justice. No one receives injustice. Paul anticipates this protest: “Is there injustice on God’s part?” (Rom. 9:14a). He answers it with the most emphatic response he can muster. I prefer the translation, “God forbid” (v. 14b). Then he goes on to amplify this response: “For he says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion’” (v. 15). Here the Apostle is reminding his reader of what Moses declared centuries before; namely, that it is God’s divine right to execute clemency when and where He desires. He says from the beginning, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.” It is not on those who meet some conditions, but on those whom He is pleased to bestow the benefit.

    The Westminester Confession Of Faith 1646... God's Eternal Decree

    Yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, Nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

    III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

    IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

    V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

    VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

    VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

    VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election, So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.
     
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  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    God sovereignly predestined all who would believe to be the sons of God.
     
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  3. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Member
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    Didn't God sovereignly predestine before the foundation of the world? So, he did not foresee the faith of someone, down the road, but predestined them in eternity past. It wasn't foreseen faith that He predestined, right?
     
  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    But Romans 3 & Psalms 14 says there are none who understand, there are none who seek God.

    Plus, election happened from before the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4]

    God predestines ppl not their actions.

    This view of yours is way off base, imo.

    You have ppl predestining themselves and not God.
     
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  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Agree... And this question remains does God love everybody?... If he does then is not everyone one saved?... Beloved let us love one another for love is of God and every one that loveth is BORN OF GOD AND KNOWETH GOD... So how many have the capacity to love another person?... But there is a problem with this scenario... Scripture states Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated... I believe unless some can prove me wrong by scripture that God's love is a perfect love and on the other side of the coin... God's hate is a perfect hatred... Sovereign Grace made another point that God predestined people but some believe that God predestined some to heaven and some to hell... They want to believe that, it is okay with me but I like the way I heard an Old Baptist preacher put it... In the scripture that says: For ALL have sinned (past tense in Adam) and have come short of the Glory Of God... Those predestined were also in the ALL but they were given by God the Father to his Son Jesus Christ to save, given before the foundation of the world before Adam's transgression ... So what about those who were not elected and predestined?... They were left just where they were not of the elected and predestined... In the elected and predestined God showed his MERCY! (BTW which none of us deserved)... Those not he showed his JUSTICE!... There will be some who agree and some who disagree. There will also be some on the fences. These are my thoughts, what are yours... Brother Glen:)

    2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
     
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  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    If God loves everybody then He is not immutable. Psalms 5:5 says He hates the workers(here means ppl and not their sins) of iniquity. Then Proverbs 6:15,16 says He hates those(again, actual ppl and not their lying) who bear false witness and those(again, ppl not their sins) who sow discord amongst the Brothers & Sisters.

    Also, if God loves everybody and is also immutable, He loves those He personally cast into an eternal hell.
     
  7. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    What is your understanding of "hate"? Please explain what it means that "God hates...".
     
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    It sure ain't love less. God hates those who commit iniquity, who lie and causes strife amongst His ppl. He just doesn't love them less, He hates them.
     
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  9. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Romans 9 answers the Gentile's question, "wait, why were Jews so special to get the oracles of God and the blessings and a Sovereign God to lead them? "

    And Paul answers, because God chose them!

    This is not "individual salvation". It is divine eschatological salvation that birthed the Messiah and set up a Kingdom of a Nation/people of God (who would eventually incorporate nations and bring salvation/worship outside of the Temple)
     
  10. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    What does hate mean though?
     
  11. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    God loves His Son. His Son is holy and perfect. God's love for us is only expressed in Christ. Because we are in Christ, we are loved. When we were found outside of Christ, God's wrath was against us and his justice would have fallen with dreaded certainty.
    Praise God we are found in Christ. Praise God that this was established from before the world was made.
     
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  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    It means to hate.

    Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)

    I don't know why it shows 'Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)

    That's a link to 'blue letter bible'...
     
  13. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Amen!

    What does it mean "to hate"? What is hate?
     
  14. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    You either have no idea or you just don't want to say it.
     
  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Hate means to hate. Look at the link for crying out loud...
     
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    In your own words? How do you understand hate?
     
  18. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    You calvies have a weird way of showing love to the brethren.
     
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  19. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.[Matthew 6:24]

    Are we to love Satan less?

    And I know what verse you're gonna use next.
     
  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    It means to loathe, detest, abhor. Does God hate, loathe, detest Satan or just love him less than us?
     
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