Election

If, as Arminians prefer, "whole world" (holos kosmos) means every man who ever lived and ever will live, then God's wrath should be turned aside completely and forever, since every man's sins have been propitiated. We know this isn't true, however. So, IMO, that interpretation must be incorrect and there must be another answer.

I honestly don't know for certain what that answer may be. IMO it could mean that the propitiation is all-sufficient -- that, if God chose to do so, He could save everyone, and there would be nothing lacking in the atonement. It could also mean something much more simple -- that John is saying that Jesus is the propitiation not only for the sins of those elect to whom the letter is addressed, but also for the sins of the elect all over the whole world. </font>[/QUOTE]4study, npetreley is correct. This verse could not mean that Jesus was propitation of everyman's sin for the reason's that he clearly stated. However, he left out one possible interpretation. Since the Bible clearly teaches that Christ's atoning work was "timeless," in that it covers not only the sins of those in the past but in sins of those to come, this verse could also mean that Jesus' work of propitation is applied through faith to all who believe upon his name whenever and where ever they may be in the world.

Therefore the issue we should be debating is faith. Which I presented in my thread titled, "What is the Source of Faith?" and on a different but similar focus in "We Grasp and Possess Christ by Faith."

I look forward to hearing how Npetreley answers or should I say avoids my arguments in those threads.

Bro. Bill

 

rufus,

Regarding your last post concerning propitiation:

So you're saying I Jn. 2:2 means the propitiation of Christ is adequate for all. And I assume your statement in your second post (the one I previously quoted from) means it is applied only towards the elect since you say "to the exclusion to all others in the world". Correct?

We know that God's wrath will eventually be poured out upon the world. Yet the propitiation still stands for the sins of the world according to I Jn. 2:2. So my question is, what is the value of the propitiation with regard to the sins of the world? Is it simply "out there" but without any power? What has the propitiation accomplished for the sins of the world if it is only "adequate" as you say.

 

npetreley, Brother Bill

Does the atonement remove sin? If so, what does I Jn. 2:2 mean? Obviously the "whole world" is not guiltless as a result of the atonement. Yet, the elect, I suppose are guiltless as a result of its application, right?

 

Excellent point! I hadn't thought of that. I think it's unlikely, because the reference is to kosmos not time, but it's certainly possible.

 

I'm in minor shock. Npetreley not only partially conceded that I might be correct, but he did it without being mean at all. I never thought I'd see the day.

Thank you, I realize you don't agree, but thank you for treating me like a human being for once. That is a step in the right direction.

With Respect,
Bro. Bill

 

Thanks for saying something that wasn't based on the conviction that a pronoun was more important than unambiguous scriptures.

 

Scripture states that Christ has died for all. For example: “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life” (Rom. 5:18).

The limitation is clearly stated in the text, since it refers to all who have been made partakers of this justification unto life. However, all do not become partakers of the justification unto life, but only the elect. Thus, “all” must not be understood as referring to all men, but only to the elect. Adam is designated as the source of the misery of all who are comprehended in him as all men were comprehended in him, and have fallen in him. In contrast, Christ is presented as the cause of grace for all who are in Him, and all they— and only they— are in Him; that is, all who become partakers of justification unto life.
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“Because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again” (2 Cor. 5:14b-15).

It is not stated as “all men.” The word “all” refers to all those of whom is spoken here. The reference is clearly to all who have died to sin, and who are alive through regeneration. All men have not died to sin, however, and are not partakers of spiritual life. Christ therefore did not die for all men, but for all who, through Christ’s death, have died to sin and by virtue of His resurrection have received spiritual life. They are exhorted to manifest this death and this life to the honor of Christ.
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“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).

(1) The text says the opposite of what many have in view here, for it is certain that all men are not made alive in Christ, nor will be made alive in Him. Mention is here made of all who are made alive in Christ, to the exclusion of all others. The text, however, does not speak of Christ’s satisfaction, but of the elect being made alive. Here two heads, Adam and Christ, are contrasted, along with the consequences of this. Adam brought death upon all who are in him, and Christ has given life unto all who are in Him.
(2) He speaks of all those to whom he writes, generally addressing them with the pronouns “we” and “our.” These are “the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia” (2 Cor. 1:11). This therefore does not pertain to all men in the world, but is limited to those mentioned.
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“God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all” (Rom. 11:32).

This text speaks of the hardening and the conversion of the Jews, which is indicated throughout the entire chapter. Thus, this text neither speaks of the satisfaction of Christ, nor of all men upon the face of the earth.
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“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all” (1 Tim. 2:4–6).

The text itself indicates that the word “all” does not refer to all men, head for head, but refers only to the elect from all nations, and all social ranks.
(1) It is impossible to pray for every man, head for head, for one need not pray for someone who has sinned against the Holy Ghost (1 John 5:16), knowing that God will not be merciful to them. Christ did not pray for all (John 17:9), nor did Paul (cf. 2 Tim. 4:14; Gal. 5:12).
(2) The mention of kings and those who are placed in authority confirms that “all” means “various” (cf. Mat. 4:23; Luke 11:42; Eph. 1:3; 1 Cor. 10:25). It is the apostle’s wish that as far as someone’s salvation is concerned we ought not to entertain any prejudice.
(3) The text does say that God will have all men to be saved. If, however, all men are to be understood by this, then all of necessity should also be saved, for no one can resist God’s will as He always accomplishes it and no one is able to resist His hand. If one maintains that God wills when men are willing, we reply that this is not written anywhere, for salvation does not originate in the exercise of man’s will. God knew indeed that only a small minority would be willing, and thus it is not possible that He willed the salvation of all.
(4) The apostle joins together salvation and the knowledge of the truth, and experience teaches that God is not willing that all men should come to the knowledge of the truth, for it is not revealed to all.
(5) Christ gave Himself as a ransom aντίλυτρον ( antilutron), that is, to put Himself in the place of another, to pay the debt, to bear the punishment, to set others free, and to make them partakers of this freedom. Christ, however, does not do this for all men, but only for those who believe in Him. From this it is evident that the word “all” does not refer to all men, head for head, but only to believers from every nation and every social rank.
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To contradict the truth presented above, also such texts are produced in which Christ is said to have suffered for the world. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

It is not stated here that Christ died for the world nor that God has loved all men in the world, but that He loved the world. Love for the world is the same as love for humanity (cf. Titus 3:4). He did not manifest His love to the angels who sinned, but to the human race, so that love for the world is not love for every single person in the world, but a love for men in general. God has manifested this love in the giving of His Son, which, however, is not to the benefit of all, it being restricted to believers only. This does not imply that the Son would only remove the obstacle from God’s side and thus translate the entire human race into a state of reconciliation without making them partakers of salvation. Rather Christ delivers believers from condemnation and gives them eternal life (John 3:17). It is stated “to save the world.” This does not only imply a meriting of salvation— which those who use this text for rebuttal wish to maintain— but also its application and impartation. It is undeniably true, however, that this does not occur with every single person, but is only true for believers, as is stated in the text. Therefore the word “world” refers to the human race in general, and not to each person in particular. There also is no mention of the meriting of salvation, but of the application and impartation of eternal salvation. Only believers are partakers of this and no one else.
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“. . . which I will give for the life of the world” (John 6:51).

I repeat that the word “world” refers to the human race. This is in contrast to the fallen angels, as Scripture itself makes this contradistinction, albeit in a different context. “For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham” (Heb. 2:16). Whatever is said of the world in general may not be applied to every individual person. The first world perished in the flood (Luke 17:27). This is not applicable to every person, for Noah and his family remained alive. This is frequently to be observed in other texts of Scripture as well; as is in this text, for Christ gives life to the world, according to Luke 17:33. He does not, however, give spiritual life to every person but only to His elect. It should be very clear that the reference here is not to the meriting of salvation, but to the application of the merits of Christ. No one will propose that this is true for all men, for experience demonstrates the contrary.
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“God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them” (2 Cor. 5:19).

The “world” refers to the human race. From a general truth one may not make a deduction for each individual situation, for then we would have to reason as follows: The first world perished, the flood eliminated all men, and thus also Noah and his family. The world has not known Christ (John 1:10) and thus this would also be true for believers. The world hates Christ (John 7:7), and if this excludes no one, this would also be true for the converted who, however, love Christ. The old serpent deceives the entire world (Rev. 12:9) and thus also the elect. The whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19) and thus also the saints without exception, for it is stated to be true for the whole world. Who cannot perceive that these deductions are flawed? Thus we can see that whatever is said of the world in general is not applicable to every individual person. Sometimes evil is pronounced upon the world, which is only applicable to those who are evil; at times something good is said of the world, which is applicable to another group. Therefore, when the word “world” is used, one may not conclude from this word that this is true for every person, but from the context it must be deduced who are to be understood. The text here conveys that “world” must be understood of those who are reconciled with God, whose trespasses are not imputed to them. It is clear that the wrath of God abides upon the disobedient, indicating that this wrath was never removed, that all men are not in a state wherein their sins are forgiven, not being imputed to them— which is to be blessed indeed (Ps. 32:1–2). Thus, it is obvious that the word “world” is not inclusive of every person without exception, but only refers to those whose transgressions have not been imputed to them. This text demonstrates at once that “reconciliation” and “not imputing transgressions” are parallel concepts. Since all do not experience the application of salvation, all also do not experience reconciliation.
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“And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

(1) One may no less make the deduction that the phrase, “the whole world,” is applicable to every individual person than we may from the word “world,” for of the first world it is written that the flood destroyed all its inhabitants (Luke 17:27). It is also written that the devil deceived the whole world (Rev. 12:9), and that the whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19).
(2) The words “not . . . only, but” indicate that there is a contrast between Jews (which John and the believers of that nation were), and Gentiles, who by way of contrast are referred to as world, not only here but also in Romans 11:12, 15. As one may not conclude that the word “world,” being a general reference to the human race, refers to every individual person, one may also not do so in this contrast. Sometimes this refers to the ungodly, and at other times to the godly in a given nation, which is evident from Romans 11:12, 15, “Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world . . . for if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world . . .” Not every Gentile will be the recipient of the spiritual riches of Christ as a result of the fall of the Jews, nor will every Gentile without exception receive reconciliation, but only the converted, that is, the believers among the heathen. Everyone will have to admit to this. If therefore it is written that Christ is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world, one cannot understand this to refer to every individual person, but only to believers among the Gentiles.
(3) John here joins the two elements of Christ’s high priestly office: He is an Advocate and a propitiation. We have demonstrated above that these two cannot be separated, and that for those for whom He is the one, He is also the other. Since Christ does not intercede for the reprobate world (John 17:9), He is also not the propitiation for them, but only for the elect world which receives reconciliation by virtue of the fall of the Jews. It is thus evident that Christ did not die for each individual person in the world.
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As a rebuttal against the truth presented above, men produce those texts in which it is stated that Christ has also sanctified and purchased ungodly men, such as in Hebrews 10:29, “who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace.”

This text does not speak of Christ’s death for all men, for all men do not come to that state which is described here. Even if Christ were to have died for some ungodly men (which is not the case), one could not yet conclude that Christ died for all the ungodly. Mention is not made here of reconciliation by the death of Christ. The word “sanctified” refers to an actual state, so the reference here would be to application and not to the meriting of salvation, which is the point of contention. The phrase, “to be sanctified,” does not refer here to a change of heart by regeneration, but to a separation from the common populace by virtue of being called to the fellowship of the church. The verb, “to sanctify,” frequently makes reference to being set apart for a holy purpose, as is stated concerning all ceremonial objects and the people of Israel. “For thou art an holy people . . . the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people” (Deut. 7:6). Thus, to sanctify means “to set apart”; “. . . the accomplishment of the days of purification” (Acts 21:26). We deny emphatically that “to sanctify” here refers to a holy state of the heart, but maintain that it refers to being set apart from the general populace in order to be included in the fellowship of the church. True saints cannot fall away, which we will prove at the appropriate place. If one were to suggest that this sanctification occurred by virtue of the death of Christ, I reply that by virtue of His death Christ has received power over everything in heaven and upon earth, that He might use it to bring about the salvation of the elect. Thus, the death of Christ also has objectives other than reconciliation only.
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“. . . even denying the Lord that bought them” (2 Pet. 2:1). Here we perceive that even deniers of the truth are bought by the Lord Jesus.

This text does not speak of all men, for all do not come into such a situation. The word “buy” does not afford any proof that there is a universal redemption by virtue of Christ’s death, for one may buy things for various purposes. One buys vessels for contemptible purposes and also to be used as ornaments. One can buy slaves in order to set them free or to perform the most menial task. One can also buy donkeys to bear burdens. In like manner, these false prophets were bought by the Lord, who here is not called Κυριος ( Kurios), that is, Lord or Master, but δεσπότης ( despotes), that is, Master of the house. They were called to perform a task in His house, that is, to be teachers in His church, which was an office they abused and thus became false prophets. By virtue of His death the Lord Jesus has received a claim upon everything and has been appointed heir of all things (Heb. 1:2). The Lord has subdued all things under His feet (1 Cor. 15:28) and at His Name all knees must bow (Phil. 2:10). Thus, also these teachers were under His jurisdiction. He bought them in order to use them to the benefit of the elect, buying them, however, as slaves or donkeys, but not to be His children.
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Rebuttal to the Argument that All Men are Commanded to Believe in Christ, and thus Christ Died for All

In an effort to rebut the truth presented above, one will also use this syllogism: Whatever one is obligated to believe is true. Since all men are obligated to believe that Christ died for them, such is of necessity true.

The first proposition is correct, for faith has nothing but truth as its object; however, the second proposition is nothing but untruth, for:
(1) The gospel is neither proclaimed to the majority of men, nor have they ever heard a word about Christ, and therefore they are not guilty of the sin of not believing in Christ.
(2) All who are called are not obligated to believe that Christ has died for them. The contrary is true. They must believe that as long as they remain unconverted, they are outside of Christ.
(3) It is true, however, that all who are called must receive Christ by faith, and refusing to do so, they will make their condemnation all the heavier. It is one thing to believe in Christ, that is, receive Christ unto justification and sanctification, and another thing to believe that Christ is my Savior and has died for me. To this end one must perceive the evidences of truly having received Christ, and of being truly converted.

rufus

 

rufus,

I read most of your last post and surmized the following of 1 Jn. 2:2;

The propitiation is only for the elect since "the whole world" regards those who are Gentiles among the elect in contrast to Jews.

Yet this proposition is based upon this premise: the propitiation of Christ removes sin (i.e the guilt of sin and including the forgiveness of sin). If this be true, faith becomes irrelevant regarding the forgiveness of sin since the atonement itself does the job.

Here's another question: Does the propitiation cover all sin or just some sin (i.e. the sin of the elect)? If the later, how was Lucifer able to "present himself" among the sons of God in Job 1:6?

 

4Study, your summaries are incorrect. I'm sorry! You may be reading your own thoughts.

It's best to read my post in context, for a tight web has been spun for your enjoyment.

Since your only MOTIVE has been merely to UNDERSTAND my post, I welcome your questions but believe I have sufficently answered you.

God Bless

rufus

 

rufus,

Okay. Thanks.

 

rufus, that was an excellent post. You pointed to some things I had not noticed in scripture before, so I really appreciate it.