You would have to since I know you would agree with me that God is sovereign.
Which means that God desires free will over the salvation of people. Or I guess I could say that God desires one's love over the desire to save based on what you said here. My point is simply this, God's greatest desire isn't that all men be saved. If that were true, it would happen unless God cannot save everyone.
Calvinist don't believe anyone comes to Christ unwillingly. And why would being saved from the damnation of hell be a bad thing?
Election
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Amy.G, Feb 29, 2012.
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1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Notice Peter said we were as sheep going astray, but are now returned to Jesus. You cannot return somewhere you have never been. If you were born separated from God, you could not return to him.
Jesus also showed this three times in Luke 15.
Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
How many sheep did the shepherd originally have?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
How many pieces of silver did the woman originally have?
Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
How many sons did the man originally have?
The prodigal was not born out in sin, he was born and lived in his father's house. He chose to leave his home and went out in sin. He joined himself to a citizen of that far country (Satan).
Luke 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
This is when the boy became a child of wrath. But when he repented and returned home, what did his father say?
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Twice the father said the prodigal son was alive AGAIN. If we are born dead in sin, separated from the Father at birth, it could never be said that we are alive AGAIN. But Jesus himself said this twice.
The scriptures do not show us born dead in sin. The scriptures say God has made men upright, but all men go astray in sin and become lost.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
You have been sold a lie. The scriptures do not say we are born dead in sin. -
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God has predetermined to make whosoever believes to be blameless in his sight, even if they are a Gentile. That is the point being made. It is not about God preselecting individual winners and losers.
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"You were chosen for the job based on a good recommendation from an employee and having experience"
How does the cal decipher this sentence? -
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I see you didn't give your commentary, btw. -
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It is a matter of Holiness. Love does not force, compel, or constrain. It is not God's nature to compel, just as it is not God's nature to lie. God cannot compel you to love him, just as he cannot tell a lie.
I don't know if you are married, but if so, I hardly believe you hit your wife over the head with a club and dragged her by the hair into your cave.
I don't know about you, but I would not want a woman who did not sincerely want me. Oh, there are a few folks out there who would kidnap a woman off the street and force her to be his wife. There was the story of Elizabeth Smart who was kidnapped like this. Is this love? NO! It is criminal, and every person on earth (except a few insane folks) knows this.
Yet that is exactly how you think a person is saved, only you think God supernaturally zaps them and makes them willing to love him. This is no different from a fellow who puts a drug in a girl's drink to make her willing and take advantage of her. This is not love, this is pure selfishness and evil.
There are a few here that think God can do anything, and just because he is God that makes it OK. That is not true.
Jhn 8: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Jesus could not simply say anything, what he said must be truth in reality. God cannot tell a lie and that makes it OK simply because he is God as some have posted here in the past. You know who.
God cannot force a person to love him, that would be criminal. God MUST allow us free will and choice, not to do so would be immoral and sin. This is why Jesus said "for it must needs be that offences come". God MUST give us free will. This free will enables us to choose to obey and love God, but it also enables us to disobey and hate God. It cannot be avoided.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Calvinists have been so indoctrinated by false doctrine that they cannot understand what all the world understands, that love cannot be forced. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance. THe bible never says this....this is a misquote
So as I said it is a misquote.....you still do not "get it":laugh:
here is your quote;
It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance.
here is the whole verse....
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
Hint....they are not the same....you misquoted.....it is two whole different ideas.......you posted an unbiblical statement that is error:thumbs: -
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Jedi Knight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
the elect are being told that the reason for the delay ...that the scoffers are whining about ..is God's long-suffering...so that all the elect will come in....read it correctly and you will see the contrast....any other reading is error. -
Can you please explain my view just once so I know you are getting it, because you keep saying thing that makes me think you are not understanding what we believe. Just put my view in your own words and try to represent it as correctly as you can.
I think that will help. Because right now, I really don't care if you agree with me I just need to know you understand. -
God needing to be long suffering to those He chose from the foundation of the world to not perish...and to be "willing" that this unperishable group does not perish is as ridiculous an explanation as it gets. Who is He longsuffering towards, Himself since He is the one who needs to quicken them to repent? No idea how anyone can believe this! -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
In the NC...we are speaking of ....The Christian Israel....all those who are In Christ.... -
oh, yes I'm married.
the rest has nothing to do with my point.
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