Election

See above. Romans 8:6-9


No. I did not love God until I was saved. I heard about Christ for years before I was saved, but hearing about Him did not make me love Him. Maybe I'm just weird.

 

We all knew you were weird already :D

I'm missing where the Romans passage addresses loving God only occurring post salvation. I think Lydia and Cornelius would refute that notion, not to mention Paul who thought he was doing the work of the Lord in adhering to the law.

 

Exactly! :thumbsup:

Interesting how this Scripture plainly states what you're saying Amy, yet it is 'philosophized' against by those who believe they loved God before salvation in a lost state of enmity against God.

I recall a 'theologian' who claimed we don't need divine assistance for this. His name? The infamous Pelagius.

 

I believe God always loved me, but not so sure that I loved Him back until I came to faith in love of the truth and I really got to know Him as He fulfilled the promises in His Word that command us to seek and He revealed to me the truth of the matter as I realized how great that His love was and loved Him back from "my" heart all the more.

 

I walked right into that one didn't I? :laugh:

How could you miss it?
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


The carnal/unsaved person is an enemy of God. God's enemies certainly don't love Him.

 

You can and are certainly welcome to disagree with Pelagius to any degree you wish, but he is no more "infamous" than you or myself.

in·fa·mous (nf-ms)
adj.
1. Having an exceedingly bad reputation; notorious.
2. Causing or deserving infamy; heinous: an infamous deed.
3. Law
a. Punishable by severe measures, such as death, long imprisonment, or loss of civil rights.
b. Convicted of a crime, such as treason or felony, that carries such a punishment.

 

No, God is like the loving father of the prodigal son who looked for his return.

Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

Notice that the father was looking for his son's return, he saw him while he was a great way off. I believe this is speaking of God's foreknowledge. But nevertheless, it indeed shows the father was patiently waiting for his son to come home to him.

You can make fun of God patiently waiting for a sinner to repent all you want, but that is exactly what Jesus showed in this parable. You ought to think about that.

 

:)

Paul is not addressing unsaved people, nor is he addressing the ability to love...the entire chapter is addressing living by the spirit v. by the flesh. It says the carnal MIND, not the carnal person.

 

God is All-powerful, but He is also Truth, and the truth of matter is that He could not have ever forced me or any other creature to love Him because that would not be real (true) love. He brought love and promise of redemption into the world in truth and in grace He paid the price for all that He created and He denied His love to none. He designed us in His likeness and with the ability to choose, to gain knowledge and to understand reason and He will judge us on that matter. God is all about Love, Truth and Righteous judgment as well as being Omnipotent; if for the sake of explaining “election” one attempts to short change (or remove 100% truth) from “any” of His Divine attributes to reach a doctrinal explanation then it is abundantly apparent that his/her theology falls short of being 100% accurate (truth) on the most basic of theological principles that should be held in the highest regard concerning both His Nature and purposes in creation.

 

Excellent verse AMYG...all the way around.....God loved us while we were yet sinners...but he drew us in..

3The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

 

That is your understanding and philosophy ...but it does not match the biblical data, or the biblical God.

 

Webdog......I found the passage that addresses it exactly...

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Any who "love"God do so by the Spirit ...God loving them first as amyg posted before

 

?????

Romans 8

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.


Sure sounds like he's comparing the unsaved (death/enmity against God) to the saved (life/indwelling Spirit) to me.

 

Paul is contrasting life and death here AMYG...once again you are correct

Carnal people are unsaved;

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God


Those who remain in the First adam...remain in the realm of death...going on to second death.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

 

Off topic, but I hope you guys are safe and not in any of the horrible storms today. :praying:

 

Eph 1:4 (1)According as he hath (2)chosen us (3)in him before the foundation of the world, (4)that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
c.f.
Php 1:29 (1)For (2)unto you it is given (3)in the behalf of Christ, not only (4)to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

I would say it is both.
We are chosen to be in Christ.
We are chosen in behalf of Christ (Php 1:29).

The Father draws a people to the Son and the Son raises those same people up at the last day.
All those drawn are given to the Son.
The Son loses none whom the Father gives Him.
No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them.

It all fits together perfectly.

 

You, Icon, in prideful strict adherence to a manmade doctrine would attempt to change, downgrade, devalue the depth of God’s attribute of Love, which is revealed throughout scripture, and expressed in the meaning of His “lovingkindness”. You attempt to reduce it to be like that of man…or should I say, some men who do not give proper attention to the truth of His attributes of love and promises made that He has given genuine light to all His creatures that come into the world: (2Pe 3:9) “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance’. Shame on you as you try to philosophy, willfully strive at every opportunity to teach others that God’s Nature of lovingkindness is only directed to the specially pre-selected few. You are merely showing your ignorance in interpretational skills when you present scripture that you believe supports your view and use thereby to work toward your goals of negating the “truth” of His righteous judgment (Deut 32:4)...all to hold to a warped doctrinal boxed view of 'election' (Amy). May God forgive you, Icon, for your overzealous attempts to hold to such a doctrine which stimulates you to preach a message of darkness into the world rather than deliver the Gospel message of truth GENUINELY written to all:

(1Jn 1:3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

(1Jn 1:4) And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

 

It has to be said that much of the debate over the meaning of election, predestination, reprobation and associated concepts has been carried on at a level of systematic abstraction and binary logic that seems oblivious to the way the Old Testament speaks of God’s choice of Israel. Between election in the Hebrew Scriptures of Jesus and election in the foundations of theological systems there sometimes seems to be a great gulf fixed. The Mission of God, pg. 262.

Here are some of his insights from page 263 of The Mission of God:

"The election of Israel is instrumental, not an end in itself. Israel was chosen as the means by which salvation could be extended throughout the earth. Israel as a nation was chosen to be the vehicle in which God’s mission would be extended to the whole world." Not every person in Israel was saved; like Abraham before them, they had to place their faith in God to be saved.

"The election of Israel is fundamentally missional, not just soteriological." According to Wright, “If we allow the doctrine of election to become merely a secret calculus that determines who gets saved and who does not, we have lost touch with its original biblical intention.”

 

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.