Elevation of women in the church and in society

[Dale-c]

I don't find it offensive, but probably where I differ from you is that you would apply it to all of society. For example, I don't know that there is a general principle that women are never to lead men outside the church. Or that women can never in ANY sphere of society have "authority" over men.
I also am not sure that every woman is primarily given talents to be in the home.

I think you will find the general principle, though perhaps not the exact rule in the Bible.
Do you see any example in the bible of a role where men are under women and it is a good thing?

Does your wife vote? Does she only vote the way you tell her to?

she hasn't sine we were married but she probably
will.
As for voting what I tell her to vote:
I am opposed to women voting in general. The problem is there is no representation for women otherwise.
My problem with women voting is in the law, not what a particular women does.
I would have failed as a leader if my wife were to vote against me.

Would you quit rather than have a female boss?

Depends on the situation but probably so.

If your daughter never marries, will you expect her to live at home with you and your wife as an adult, with you setting the rules?

NOt sure exactly what I would do. Would I lock her up like Repunzel? Not at all. She would enjoy great freedom by then.
If she rebelled then it would be out of my hands, if she did not rebel then I wouldn't have to make harsh rules now would I?
So by the time she is 25 or 30, if she is unmarried that question is not a good question.

Regardless of what you think are the implications of your statements above, everyone reads it in the context of how they see people living it out.

Perhaps. But that makes no difference. What the Bible says is what we all must do.
We must follow God's revealed will. Not some politically correct form of feminism.

 

[Dale-c]

First of all I have not claimed anything concerning you or anyone else. Secondly, yes I do find your list offensive, but I think Karen is probably much nicer about it so I'll leave it at that. Suffice it to say, I am a Christian wife, a Christian mother, and an educated Christian woman with authority over many men in my various career pursuits.

Tell me please:
What is offensive about my list?
If there is something Biblically wrong, I want to know.
IF there is NOT something Biblically wrong, then you need to repent.

Either way, it is important.

 

[drwthohh]

I would like to point out something that occurred to me a while back...

The Bible instructs me to love my wife. The Bible instructs my wife to submit to my authority. The Bible does not instruct me to make my wife submit. So there is no call for me to "subjugate" my wife to myself.

What helps me the most to know how to be a Godly husband is to think of how Jesus was when He came to the earth:

Philippians2:
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

And this is the KING of all creation! The Name above all names!

Man, when I consider this it just blows me away! That is sooo different than what we think of when it comes to exercising authority. We think of authority as something that is to be sought after, something special that makes you important. Actually Godly authority comes with a great responsibility. Those in authority will answer to God for their actions.

As a husband I should first be humble. I should instruct my family (including my wife) in the things of the Lord. I should love my wife as I do my own body. I should be considerate and treat my wife with respect. If a husband does these things with any degree of competency a Godly wife will almost never have a problem submitting to his authority as the need arises.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I would like to point out something that occurred to me a while back...

The Bible instructs me to love my wife. The Bible instructs my wife to submit to my authority. The Bible does not instruct me to make my wife submit. So there is no call for me to "subjugate" my wife to myself.

What helps me the most to know how to be a Godly husband is to think of how Jesus was when He came to the earth:

Philippians2:
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

And this is the KING of all creation! The Name above all names!

Man, when I consider this it just blows me away! That is sooo different than what we think of when it comes to exercising authority. We think of authority as something that is to be sought after, something special that makes you important. Actually Godly authority comes with a great responsibility. Those in authority will answer to God for their actions.

As a husband I should first be humble. I should instruct my family (including my wife) in the things of the Lord. I should love my wife as I do my own body. I should be considerate and treat my wife with respect. If a husband does these things with any degree of competency a Godly wife will almost never have a problem submitting to his authority as the need arises.

Amen. If a man loves his wife like Christ loved the church she has no problem submitting. He need not subjugate her.

 

[Amy.G]

I would like to point out something that occurred to me a while back...

The Bible instructs me to love my wife. The Bible instructs my wife to submit to my authority. The Bible does not instruct me to make my wife submit. So there is no call for me to "subjugate" my wife to myself.

What helps me the most to know how to be a Godly husband is to think of how Jesus was when He came to the earth:

Philippians2:
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

And this is the KING of all creation! The Name above all names!

Man, when I consider this it just blows me away! That is sooo different than what we think of when it comes to exercising authority. We think of authority as something that is to be sought after, something special that makes you important. Actually Godly authority comes with a great responsibility. Those in authority will answer to God for their actions.

As a husband I should first be humble. I should instruct my family (including my wife) in the things of the Lord. I should love my wife as I do my own body. I should be considerate and treat my wife with respect. If a husband does these things with any degree of competency a Godly wife will almost never have a problem submitting to his authority as the need arises.

Best post of the whole thread! :applause:

I have not seen any threads on this board since I joined that talked about what God expects of a Godly husband, but I have seen many on why women should submit.

Thanks for bringing balance back to the discussion. :thumbs:

 

[Filmproducer]

Tell me please:
What is offensive about my list?
If there is something Biblically wrong, I want to know.
IF there is NOT something Biblically wrong, then you need to repent.

Either way, it is important.

I have already said my piece, but for those reading impaired I ask again where exactly in the Bible does it preclude women from holding positions of authority in the business world?

You seriously have a problem with the legality of women voting? Seriously? This
I've got to hear. Please enlighten me , O legal scholar..... :laugh: By all means spell it out for me as well, because in all my years of scholarly legal pursuit I have not seen evidence, nor precedence, for your area of legal expertise, but then again what do I know being a woman and all that.

BTW, O pompous one, what exactly do I need to repent of? Not yielding to your opinion and being one dang-uppity educated woman?

 

[Filmproducer]

I would like to point out something that occurred to me a while back...

The Bible instructs me to love my wife. The Bible instructs my wife to submit to my authority. The Bible does not instruct me to make my wife submit. So there is no call for me to "subjugate" my wife to myself.

What helps me the most to know how to be a Godly husband is to think of how Jesus was when He came to the earth:

Philippians2:
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

And this is the KING of all creation! The Name above all names!

Man, when I consider this it just blows me away! That is sooo different than what we think of when it comes to exercising authority. We think of authority as something that is to be sought after, something special that makes you important. Actually Godly authority comes with a great responsibility. Those in authority will answer to God for their actions.

As a husband I should first be humble. I should instruct my family (including my wife) in the things of the Lord. I should love my wife as I do my own body. I should be considerate and treat my wife with respect. If a husband does these things with any degree of competency a Godly wife will almost never have a problem submitting to his authority as the need arises.

Excellent post! :thumbs:

 

[Dale-c]

Amen. If a man loves his wife like Christ loved the church she has no problem submitting. He need not subjugate her.

I will add an amen as well.

 

[Dale-c]

I have already said my piece, but for those reading impaired I ask again where exactly in the Bible does it preclude women from holding positions of authority in the business world?

And I have answered this.
Women in authority over men is against the entire principle of scripture.

You seriously have a problem with the legality of women voting? Seriously? This
I've got to hear. Please enlighten me , O legal scholar..... By all means spell it out for me as well, because in all my years of scholarly legal pursuit I have not seen evidence, nor precedence, for your area of legal expertise, but then again what do I know being a woman and all that.

What are you talking about?
I never said it was illegal for women to vote.

BTW, O pompous one, what exactly do I need to repent of? Not yielding to your opinion and being one dang-uppity educated woman?

Who is being pompus?
And when did I say I was opposed to women being educated?
I plan to help my daughter the best education she can get.

Please, stop, think about what I have said and don't assume I believe that which I do not.

 

[menageriekeeper]

FP, I wonder if Christianyouth has any idea of how well he insulted his own mother with those remarks?


Rufus, this question is for you and maybe Dale, but mostly you cause it was you who quoted the few verses there seem to be on how a woman should behave. This verse in particular:

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. " - 2 Timothy 2:11-14​

Notice how Paul uses the word "I" in this verse. Is this not telling us how how he feels about women in the church? Much the same as how he gave his own opinion on marriage? (remember Paul thought everyone should stay single to better serve God without the encumberances of family responsibilities) If he had been giving us commands from God wouldn't he have simply said "the Lord suffers not a woman...."? Instead he says "I" and then goes on to give his reasons for doing so. btw, it's first Timothy not Second.

Then there is the Corinthians passage:

"For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." - 1 Corinthians 11:8-9

You snatched that one right out of a discussion that Paul was giving on head coverings. There is another verse in the same passage that might also shed some light on our discussion:

"In the Lord, however, the woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God." I Cor 11:11-12

Even with these verses, the passage is NOT about authority, but about how one should dress their heads while praying! Should we be pulling verses out of context this way?

The verses in Titus are also not about authority or secular jobs, but about what the older ladies should be teaching the younger ladies (by example as well direct teaching)

The other verses you have quoted indeed show the order of authority within the home, but no where do they show the authority outside the home and church.

Dale, why are bothering to educate your little girl if you don't plan on her ever using her education? Is it not your plan that she go from your provision to her husbands? Do have any idea how frightingly close your words sound to my grandfather's (Freewill Baptist preacher) who only allowed his girls to be educated through the 6th grade for exactly that reason?

drwthohh you are a breath of fresh air!

 

[Dale-c]

Dale, why are bothering to educate your little girl if you don't plan on her ever using her education?

When did I say that I never planned for her to use her education?

Once again you assume something I never said.
Please don't do that.

 

[Filmproducer]

And I have answered this.
Women in authority over men is against the entire principle of scripture.

Please show me exactly where, and please use within the correct context. In other words I am not talking about women preachers, or women as the head of the household over the men.

What are you talking about?
I never said it was illegal for women to vote.

And I quote:

I am opposed to women voting in general. The problem is there is no representation for women otherwise.
My problem with women voting is in the law, not what a particular women does.
I would have failed as a leader if my wife were to vote against me.

So, once again please enlighten us with your legal genious. Why do you have a problem with the law concerning the rights of women to vote?

 

[Dale-c]

My problem is that it should not be legal but it is.
It give the opportunity for a divided family.
The husband votes one way and the wife cancels out his vote with another vote.
I believe the man should vote but should be counted for all in his house. Wife and children.

Please show me exactly where, and please use within the correct context. In other words I am not talking about women preachers, or women as the head of the household over the men.

Exactly where? In the entire Bible? Try Gen 1 to Rev 22.
As far as I know you will not find a woman in authority over a man in a business sense or otherwise that is presented favorably.
If I am wrong please tell me.

 

[Filmproducer]

Who is being pompus?
And when did I say I was opposed to women being educated?
I plan to help my daughter the best education she can get.

Please, stop, think about what I have said and don't assume I believe that which I do not.

I never said you were opposed to the education of women. I did ask of what I need to repent. So, since you are under the impression I need to repent, once again I ask, for what? Where exactly in my life am I not following Biblical authority? My husband has absolutely no problem with my job, or the fact I am in a position of authority over men, so why should you? Where in the bible does it teach a man to scold another man's wife in spiritual matters? Methinks I am not the only one in need of repentance....

 

[Filmproducer]

My problem is that it should not be legal but it is.
It give the opportunity for a divided family.
The husband votes one way and the wife cancels out his vote with another vote.
I believe the man should vote but should be counted for all in his house. Wife and children.


Exactly where? In the entire Bible? Try Gen 1 to Rev 22.
As far as I know you will not find a woman in authority over a man in a business sense or otherwise that is presented favorably.
If I am wrong please tell me.

Case in point Deborah the judge. C'mon Gen. 1 through Rev. 22? In other words there is not a passage that you can specifically point out. Ah, I see now.

Why don't you read more about the virtuous woman in proverbs, I would think that it was quite obvious she had an authority over men, considering the size of her household and the BUSINESS transactions she was conducting.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Many women are far smarter than men as political, financial, managerial, or entrepreneurial leaders, as well as other fields.

Years ago, I worked in a pest control firm in the Philippines, owned by a machochistic Filipino whose wife happens to be Caucasian from Vermont, and, boy, can she manage.
Then, I knew of a woman auditor who took over an auditing office in the Philippines and cleaned the mess up where other men couldn't clean up anything right under their noses.
Men should have no problem having women as leaders in these fields, and I do not think the Scripture prevents women from excelling in these fields.
Heck, here where I work, my supervisor is a woman, and, boy, can she supervise.
I give her a 10.

 

[Dale-c]

I never said you were opposed to the education of women.

I know you didn't. I was talking to someone else.

As for of what to repent, only that you think it is ok for a woman to be in authority over a man or that it is desirable. I do not know that it is always possible to avoid in our society. I do not fault women for working in ways that they need to.
If your husband is fine with your job, I have no problem with you working that job, that is none of my business.

The one other thing is assuming that I believe that women are inferior. I do not.
Please don't assume that.

 

[Filmproducer]

My problem is that it should not be legal but it is.
It give the opportunity for a divided family.
The husband votes one way and the wife cancels out his vote with another vote.
I believe the man should vote but should be counted for all in his house. Wife and children.

Wow! That's all I can say. I am so thankful that God did not send me a man from the dark ages. I am even more thankful that I am married to a wonderful man that respects my opinions, even if they differ from his, as they regularly do. Milady you are one brave woman. In all honesty I feel sorry for you, but to each his own....

 

[Dale-c]

Why don't you read more about the virtuous woman in proverbs, I would think that it was quite obvious she had an authority over men, considering the size of her household and the BUSINESS transactions she was conducting.

I do not have a problem with women doing business.
I just would not want to be under a woman on a daily basis.
I do not mind doing business with women.

 

[Filmproducer]

I know you didn't. I was talking to someone else.

Umm...you were quoting my post. Your subsequent post was directed to another.

As for of what to repent, only that you think it is ok for a woman to be in authority over a man or that it is desirable. I do not know that it is always possible to avoid in our society. I do not fault women for working in ways that they need to.
If your husband is fine with your job, I have no problem with you working that job, that is none of my business.

And again you have not shown me any biblical proof that it is not okay for women to hold authority over a man, only Dale's interpretation. Forgive me for not yeilding to your opinion.

The one other thing is assuming that I believe that women are inferior. I do not.
Please don't assume that.

Right....keep telling yourself that buddy. Your posts drip with arrogance, and ooze with chauvinism. :thumbs: