'for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;'
I believe Paul is saying that faith, because it is a fruit of the Spirit, is the gift of God. Does the greek support or refute that?
May sound odd, but I don't intend this to be a C/A debate, and I wish that it wouldn't turn out to be. Please try to confine the focus to the greek in this verse.
Eph 2:8; Question for those skilled in the greek
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Mar 24, 2010.
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However, as a non-Calvinist today, I must add (without intending to derail or start a Cal/Arm debate) that I still affirm the idea that faith is a gift of God. Indeed, all good things come from God. I believe that faith comes by hearing and since God is the one who supernaturally brought us the gospel, then He should be credited for the faith that it produces. I don't believe saving faith is an irresistible gift by which man MUST believe the gospel, but only that faith is made possible for all who hear the truth. A gift doesn't have to be "irresistible" to still be considered a gift. Something doesn't have to be effectually applied for it to still be considered as "from God." For example, the snake staff raised in the dessert for the Israelites to look upon for healing was a gift from God, but the people didn't have to look at it in faith for healing. The scripture today is a gift from God, but that doesn't mean people have to read it or believe it. The ability to love another is a gift of God, but that doesn't mean people have to love others. Faith indeed is a gift of God, whether it's effectually applied or not. -
Well that didn't really follow your rules did it. :smilewinkgrin:
Not much to offer of myself but I'd say that researching exegetical commentaries would be your best bet to dealing with your curiosity.
I’m limiting the portions I offer to small quotes out of concern for copyright laws.
One of the best I’ve found is the NICNT volume on Ephesians.
Here’s a snippet that may help.
This stuff should get you started.
Rob -
Interesting how this author fails to locate the origin of faith, from within or without.
Rob -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The word "that" must grammatically refer to the participle "are saved," since their endings agree in gender. As A. T. Robertson points out, "and that" is neuter, but "faith" and "grace" both have feminine endings.
Robertson's NT Word Pictures:
" For by grace (têi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Eph 2:5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteôs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Eph 2:5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautê, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humôn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dôron) and not the result of our work." -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
I'm having trouble following John of Japan in this. The only participle I see in v. 8 "have been saved" in the ESV is not neuter. Unless I'm mistaken, "have been saved" is masculine.
So, while I would agree that--for the most part--the entirety of salvation is in view here, I don't see where "that" and "are saved" are related.
John, could you please elaborate for me. Maybe I need to look back past v. 8?
Blessings,
The Archangel -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In Greek, there must normally be agreement in gender between an adjective, "that" (Greek touto, "that," a pronominal adjective), and the noun it modifies. If in this case the noun were pistewV (the feminine genitive for "faith") or cariti (the feminine dative for "grace"), then the adjective simply must be feminine. In Greek, if the adjective doesn't agree in gender, there is no way to tell what the modified noun is, since word order is not so important. (My current Japanese Greek student is having a hard time with this!)
Now, you are correct that the participle seswsmenoi is masculine, not the same gender as the neuter pronominal adjective. In that case, our exegesis must be that what the pronominal adjective is modifying is the whole previous clause "salvation by grace through faith" rather than one specific word, and that is why it is neuter.
If you have Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Daniel Wallace, he has a good discussion of the various interpretations on pp. 334-335. He comes to the same conclusion I did (though I didn't consult him before doing my exegesis), saying, "More plausible is the third view, viz., that touto refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation" (p. 335). Robertson basically says the same thing in his big grammar, "In Eph. 2:8...there is no reference to pistewV in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before" (p. 704).
Clear as mud? :type: -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I was reading John Gill's commentary at ewordtoday.com and saw where an editor had inserted this parenthetic statement after Gill finished his commentary on this verse.
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And thanks for those other excerpts from commentators. -
I'm anxious to see if other Greek Guys contibute their take on it.
.......and I appreciate the input from J of J and Arch, very much. :) -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Anyway I think Wallace is right and I tend to say that grace-by-faith salvation is the gift so that grace and faith are both included in the gift--like two sides of the same coin.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
John Calvin. Why doesn't that surprise me? -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
(1) The "by faith" is simply a dative of means (or agency). Therefore, I don't see how you can get that the idea here is that faith is a gift from God. The phrase "by faith" simply gives the agency of salvation, not the source.
(2) The context of the verse is all about salvation versus works. the idea that our salvation is from God. So Paul is contrasting "salvation by faith through grace" with "salvation by works," which leads to boasting. (I don't think you can brag about saving faith.)
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
As you've shown, it is most likely grace-through-faith salvation that Paul is saying that is not out of us. Here's why I see it as two sides of the same coin:
If all of salvation is in view (which I think it is) and if that salvation involves faith (which it does) and if that salvation is by God's grace (which it is) then grace and faith are in some way both gifts.
But, as I think Wallace suggests in his option #4 (if memory serves), it is possible that Paul is suggesting that faith is not out of ourselves. To read it naturally--allowing for less-than-perfect agreement in the grammar--would suggest that Paul is indeed saying that faith is not out of ourselves. But, again, because of the grammatical issue, I don't push that too far.
So, again, I'm left with the totality of Salvation--the grace aspect and the faith aspect--being the gift.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"If adverbial, kai touto is intensive meaning 'and at that, and especially,' without having any antecedent. It focuses on the verb rather than on any noun.... If this is the force in Eph., 2:8, the text means 'for by grace you are saved through faith, and [you are saved] especially not by your own doing ; it is the give of God'" (p. 335--all emphases by Wallace). Where I have an elipsis he discusses 3 John 5 which has this usage.
So the adverbial view would eliminate faith as the gift of God which is meant. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Logically speaking, I don't see any way we "contribute" our own faith and that makes God's grace come to us. In that sense, it is as if we get grace as a reward for having faith--something that must be rejected if grace is to be grace.
So, again, I am more in line with Wallace's 3rd option--the grace-by-faith salvation and I still think the package (Salvation and Grace and Faith) are part and parcel of the gift.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Your paragraph here sounds like a pre-understanding, not exegesis of the passage. Eph. 2:8 says nothing about who contributes the faith or what makes God's grace come to us. It simply states the grace as the means of "having been saved" and the faith as the agency of being saved. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Logically, again, with the participle "having been saved" being a perfect passive it shows that this is something we have not done or contributed to. Therefore, God's grace is the ultimate cause of us having been saved. Do we demonstrate faith? Yes. Is faith required of us? Yes. Is the faith that we exhibit and demonstrate inherent to us or not? That is the question. I say it is not inherent to us and is supplied as part of the gift of salvation. I think the grammar, while not explicit, allows room for that interpretation.
But, you are correct, the passage does not necessarily identify who supplies the faith. A more systematic understanding of the Scriptures, in my opinion, leaves little doubt.
Blessings!
The Archangel -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
God bless from Japan.
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