Eternal Security

John 15 points out that everyone AT the Church is not saved or truly IN the Church. There is a huge difference from being AT Church and being IN Church. Those are the branches that are on the vine yet not part of the vine. Verse 5 gives you the clue to this;

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If you are truly part of the vine or if you are truly saved you will bring forth much fruit. It is not up to you, this is something he does through you. You are putting too much emphasis on the word abideth and nothing on the word in him. If you are in him you will produce abiding fruit.

 

Certainly at the point of salvation those who are lost are joined to Christ -- they are for the first time "in Him" they are "In Christ". But do they stay there? Do they choose to ABIDE in that condition or do they "lose their first love" and fall away?

John 15 "everyone AT CHURCH" or everyone "IN CHRIST"? Let's read the text and let the reader decide which way the text goes.

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever??





Warning regarding the Need to remain faithful – OR God simply reminding himself that He needs to make us persevere in remaining faithful if He wants to save us.

Fallen and yet hoping to be “grafted BACK in again” into the vine of Christ!

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.




24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

John said...

1) If we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves. (1John 1:8)

Now applying that to Christians, let's compare the apostle John's notes.

2) Anyone who claims to live in Him ought to walk as He walked. (1John 2:4)

Jesus lived an obedient, sinless life, therefore, anyone who claims to be in Jesus should also be living their life as Jesus lived His. If this were impossible to do, this would not have been written.

3) Anyone who lives in Him does not sin. Anyone who does sin never seen Him or known Him. (1John 3:6)

You say that Christians sin, yet the Scripture tells us that anyone who is in Jesus DOES NOT sin.

4) Anyone that commits sin is of the devil. (1John 3:8)

The Bible tells us that anyone who commits sin is of the devil. How can you say that you sin, but you are not of the devil? How can you do the will of the devil (sin) and say he is not your father? (John 8:44)

5) Anyone who does not do what is righteous is not of God. (1John 3:10)

The Bible tells us that anyone who does NOT do what is righteous is NOT of God. How can you sin (do what is not righteous) and say you are of God? Of course unless you want to say that sin is righteous???

NO! The Bible does NOT contradict itself, but 1John 1:8 does not mean what you have been TAUGHT...

2Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

...if you cannot see the truth here you are spiritually blinded. The message has been and always has been REPENT!

Read Ezekiel chapter 18, and see that repenting means to turn away from "ALL" your sins, and obey "ALL" of God's commandments.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

Hi J.J. and welcome back

I am going to make a post about baptism. You'll see it when it is up.

As for the eternal security proponents using the tag "never saved to begin with" I know they use it, and I also know how they use it. I am going to also make a post about that as well.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

Ken, you are a joke. I'm beginning to believe you are just saying theses things to foster discussion. Any Christian in his right mind knows that it is impossible to live a perfect life. If it were possible Christ would not have had to come in the "likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." If perfection could be obtained through the flesh and keeping the law there would have been no further need for sacrifice. Jesus was, is, and always will be the only sinless, perfect one. He kept all of the Fathers commandments because He was perfect. No one else will ever keep all of the commandments regardless of there audacity to state such.
It's not that anyone is looking for an excuse for sin or that they do not wish to live perfect, it is just accepting and stating the obvious, which humbles us and makes us strive to enter in. Where I come up short it will be put on Christs' account. When God looks at me He sees the blood. The only thing that continually washes away my sin.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.

Yet Ken says; Do I sin? Absolutely NOT!
In the name of Jesus,

Ken

UNBELIEVABLE!

 

Another thing Ken, if you can prove to me that you are in the Spirit all of the time, I'll agree with you that you are perfect, but you and I are not in the Spirit all of the time.
It's during these times we are susceptible to sin and impure thoughts. It is also during these times, "I [we] see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

There was only One that had the Spirit without measure, that was Christ.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

Please wake up and stop deceiving yourself into believing you are perfect.

 

So you just take the verse and turn it right on its ear. Use another one to contradict it, and change it to "non-christians", when John clearly says "WE".

And "sin" has three related but distinct definitions.
1) You're thinking of "transgression of the Law". But if you think you have not transgressed the Law since becoming Christians, then again, you ignore John 1:18.
2) There is also "Whatsoever is not of faith", carrying a conscientious connotation, whether there is a "Law" against it or not.
3) Finally, there is its etymological meaning: "MISSING THE MARK". That is the way in which we no longer "sin". So when Christ looks at us on judgment day, He sees Christ's righteousness covering us, instead of our sin.
So it is the person trusting in their own righteousness, who is left with their sins exposed, and thus, judged on their own works, will "miss the mark". That is trying to climb in any other way besides the Cross (even if you nominally claim to accept the Cross), and anyone who climbs in any other way is a theif.

Others interpret "commit" as "practice", which is held as what they call "living in sin", which is basically committing more sins in a given time than we think is normal But that can also be problematic, as it raiises the question of where the "line" is, for this state of "practicing sin".

But in no case can it mean that it is possible for us to be actually sinless. There are so many things you don't even realize are sin. Like if your doctrine is wrong (or any other belief), that is a lie, (false witness against God), and is sin.

This one would support the "practice" understanding. Nobody never does anything wrong, and on the same token, nobody always does what they should, which is what this verse is getting at.

Well, you're making it contradict, or apply to people it is not even addressing. It all doesn't contradict when you don't take other verses and run with them in the way you THINk they mean.

Ad those fables also included works-righteousness. That we could make it into Heaven by our own effort at being sinless is certainly a "fable", that you can see as you look right at any group of humans, including "christians", and including those who claim to be "sinless".

And you can only repent if you sin.

And nobody back then could ever do it, could they. Even those "called" righteous, still had to bring their lambs and other sacrifices to have their sins atoned. So this is what Christ came for. God comands us what is right, and we can't live up to it, but the command remains as the goal for us to reach for. If human sinlessness short of the resurrection were possible, then Christ was not needed at all. It seems like the only thing He does in your view is excuse you from bringing animals to a temple. But even that should have only neen necessary one time for each person.

 

Cutter,

None of NOSAS people like BobRyan, Heavenly Pilgrim, Ken, me(DeafPosttrib), and others claim that we never sin for a long time like in a month or more. We all agree on 1 John 1:9 tells us, we need to confess our sins to Christ, long as He is faithful to forgive and clean all our sins often daily. We cannot expect to be perfect, no sin for one or one year. We do sin everyday. That why we have to confess sins to Christ all the times, long as Christ is faitthful to forgive us all the times.

Bible teaches us, a truly child of God who doesn't practically sin daily. A truly child of God practically holy life for Christ, just likeas walk in the light for Christ. A truly child of God cannot walk in the dark. If a truly child of God do practically sins daily then, Christ might not forgive a person. Because the Bible tells us, we cannot serve two masters at same time. That means, we cannot serve two slaves - fleah and spirit. We must make one choice which one we are served. If we stay in fleah often, then Christ would not forgive our sins, if we still walk in the flesh same time. When we are struggling against flesh, keep on confessing our sins to Christ, while we are seriously walk in the light daily, then Christ would forgive us faithfully.

Understand?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Go back and read post 100 by Iamodd4God AKA Ken. This is his direct quote!

 

All of this I can agree with, but your Buddy Ken does not.
Blessings!

 

Correct, the operative here is those who reach the point of salvation. Again, not eveyone you see AT Church is really IN the Church.

Yes, those who are IN Church abide, not by their own power or actions, they abide because Christ lives in and keeps them.

The parable in John 15 is a continuance or clarification of the parable in Is 5:1-7. Israel believed from the parable in Is they were the vine planted in the Lords vineyard. Jesus is clarifying that belief by saying, "I am the true (or actual, real) vine." He goes on to point out to Israel that they are actually the branches. Any unproductive branch or one that brings forth wild grapes is pruned from the vine. This is because that branch is only ON the vine but not truly connected IN the vine (or drawing its substance from the vine).

Jesus is talking about Israel being prunned, not the Church. The Church is grafted onto the vine. Why would he graft us on just to cut us off? Rom 11:19

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

The unproductive parts of Israel was prunned from the vine that we (the Church) could be grafted on to the vine.

You do realize the focus of this chapter is dealing with false teachers? The problem with false teachers is they reject the truth. You are not saved believing a lie. You can only be saved by putting your faith in the Gospel.

According to Peter, these false teachers had learned about Christ and how to be saved, but then for whatever reason had rejected the truth. They also endangered their followers by encouraging them to join their apostasy. These people, Peter wrote, are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning because they rejected the only way out of sin, the only way of salvation. Like a person sinking in quicksand who refuses to grab the rope thrown to him or her, the one who turns away from Christ casts aside his or her only means of escape.

These are not people loosing their salvation, these are people rejecting salvation.

Can you expound on this or show me an example of someone using this thinking? i don't follow the question.

Lastly, Rom 11 is talking about Israel being removed from the vine so the Church could be grafted on. These are not saved people loosing their salvation, this is the unbelieving portion of a nation being prunned from the vine.

 

That a very good post, but we can NEVER lose our salvation....John 10:28...

 

AAA,

Amen.

John 10:28 promises us, no one can take us away from Christ's hand of our salvation. Understand verse 27 tells us, sheep who hear, and follow Christ, they are in Christ's hand. While they are still follow Christ. He shall always secure them in his sovereign of their salvation long as they continue to follow him. Or, if they stopped follow Christ, then He would loosed them away, in their freewill decision. John 10:27-29 is still speak of conditional salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Okay, one more time so that it may be crystal clear to you...

Do you or do you not abide in Christ? If you say yes, then according to the apostle John you ought to be walking as Jesus walked. Are you or are you not walking as Jesus walked? If you say yes, could you please clarify exactly how sin equates to walking as Jesus walked?

I have to prove nothing to you; what you believe is your choice. If you don't believe me when I say I don't sin, that is your choice and doesn't effect my life "IN" Christ. If you don't believe what the Scripture says, then that is also your choice, and again does not effect me.

Fact: Your church teaches that "SINNERS" goes to hell, but yet you are a "SINNER" not doomed to hell. So to clarify themselves, they say you are a repentant sinner, where they are not repentant. If you still sin, then you are NOT repentant, as repent means to TURN AWAY FROM SIN; STOP SINNING. Again, read Ezekiel 18, and let God's Word guide you. How can you repent and keep sinning? Impossible! If you still sin, then you did not repent.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

That's right. Ken is in a class of his own on this board. I have only run accross a few who take this sinless perfection approach to their walk with Christ. At least most christians are humble enough to never make such a boast before a Holy God.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

When it comes to the subject of christian's sins, most churches I ever heard of rightly divide the word about it and agree accross the board about it. Praise God that we at least believe the same on this point. Your all alone on this one, at least on this board Ken.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

There is no "in church" in the text just "in Christ" -

Those who are IN Christ AND who also choose to persevere in abiding In Christ - "remain" IN Christ accordint to John 15.

The "in church vs in Christ" contrast is not there just "in Christ vs still ABIDING in Christ".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Paul says "They were broken off that YOU might be grafted in" YOU in this case is gentile - and THEY are the unbelieving JEWs.

Though Paul admits to seeking to try to "save some of THEM".

"THEY" - the Jews were the "NATURAL branches".

"YOU" -- the Gentiles are the "branches grafted in -- not natural".

Which is why I keep insisting that the "you" in Romans 11 is the Church.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The issue here is not "the kind of lost person" -- lost is lost. Lost is not "loster".

The lost person TEACHING a lie is not "in a condition of having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, "

I do not think the objective unbiased reader will be inclined to insert that POV into the text such that it must read "IF after HEARING the truth of the Gospel about Christ - they never decide to accept -- they are REMAINING in their lost state"

Rather the reader will see that from their "lost state" they go to a "saved state" and THEN back again to a "lost state".

they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them

This is the "lost" vs "loster" argument - where you argue that the first lost stated is BETTER then the last lost state. It is like arguing for "a better way to be lost" when saying "better not to have KNOWN Christ".

But the text says "they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them"

You can not "turn back" from a state you are not IN. And the state they were is was not simply "knowing ABOUT Christ" but rather "knowing Christ" AND "escaped from the world's defilements" not "knowing about escape".


in Christ,

Bob

 

A "CAN never lose salvation" quote from the actual text would have been good right then.