Faith a gift

Anyone faintly familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures know the Holy Spirit has been present and active on earth since Genesis 1:2. Stephen told the jews that they were resisting the Holy Spirit even as did their father's before them (Acts 7:51).

The problem here is defining what sense did the Holy Spirit come on the day of Pentecost. It certainly is not in the sense of His presence on earth, or regenerating, sealing, filling individual saints. John 3:1-10 occurred prior to Pentecost did it not? Why would Jesus scold Nicodemus about ignorance of the new birth if it where something not yet available until Pentecost?

Jon 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Are you a teacher of Scritpure and you do not know these things?

 

The moment a person believes they are born again, but believeing is ALWAYS shown as the cause, and life is ALWAYS shown as the effect.

Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believeing ye might have life through his name.

Does this verse say, "and that living ye might believe"? No, it says, "and that believeing ye might have life".

Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Did Jesus say, "and everyone that hath everlasting life may believe"? No, he said those that see him "and believeth on him, may have everlasting life".

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Did Jesus say that, "whosoever hath everlasting life and should not perish should believe in him"? No, Jesus said whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You ignore numerous verses that all show a person must first believe to have life (regeneration) and seek to accomodate your doctrine with one verse that says he that believeth is born again, which is true, but this verse does not specify the order of which comes first. The many verses I have already showed you (and there are many more) all specifically show a person must first believe to have life.

 

The Biblicist;1755636]Anyone faintly familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures know the Holy Spirit has been present and active on earth since Genesis 1:2. Stephen told the jews that they were resisting the Holy Spirit even as did their father's before them (Acts 7:51).

I never said that was not true. In fact I agree with it.

The problem here is defining what sense did the Holy Spirit come on the day of Pentecost. It certainly is not in the sense of His presence on earth, or regenerating, sealing, filling individual saints. John 3:1-10 occurred prior to Pentecost did it not? Why would Jesus scold Nicodemus about ignorance of the new birth if it where something not yet available until Pentecost?

Jon 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Are you a teacher of Scritpure and you do not know these things?

I certainly agree that the Spirit seals the believer in every dispensation, but He does not remain, abide, in those of every dispensation. According to the Lord He had not been given yet for such a ministry but would after the Lord left and we see that in Acts.
John 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Those of the church age have a different relationship with the Spirit then any other dispensation of believers.

 

I dont ignore any of these scriptures. However, I do interpret them differently than you do.

I believe there are two different types of life conveyed to the believer at the point of regeneration/conversion, one by impartation to his person and the other by imputation in regard to his legal position before God in heaven.

There is of course "spiritual" life that comes with quickening by the Spirit that makes one a "teknia" child of God and is INTERNAL and IMPARTED in the child of God on earth.

The other is JUDICIAL forensic life or "justification of life" that is a result of faith and is the LEGAL declaration of life in connection with LEGAL adoption that makes one a "huios" or "son" of God and is EXTERNAL and IMPUTED before God in heaven and is POSITIONAL life "in Christ" in heaven wherein the saint is presently "seated in heavenly places" positionally.

Every text that deals with life as a consequence of faith is JUDICIAL life in relationship with the doctrine of justiication "before God" and is imputed life by legal decree. This legal imputation of life is directly reversed of former judicial condemnation by the law.

Since both regeneration/conversion are simeltaneous in action there is no time gap between the two but there is a logical order. Spiritual life precedes spiritual ability and therefore regenerative life precedes judicial life by faith. The former has to do with our condition while the latter has to do with our position. The former has to do with our family relationship with God while the latter has to do with our legal relationship to Gods' law. The former has to do with our relationship while the latter has to do with our legal right as heirs.

 

you have answered each point exactly right....the verses are self evident:thumbsup:

 

thank you sir. I try to do my best and thank God that He always does His best.

 

John 7:38-40

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.


Right here shows you that the Spirit had yet to indwell anyone prior to Jesus ascension(sp?) to the Father. In the OT times, they prophesied while they were moved upon. The Spirit came and went, but never indwelled anyone during the OT days.


John 14:16-18
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Another example of the Spirit not indwelling people at the time prior to Jesus' resurrection. Jesus told them that the Spirit "shall be in you", and was talking in future tense, and not present tense. This glorious event was realized in John 20:22.


John 16:12-14
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Again, another time when Jesus referenced the Spirit in future tense, and not present tense. The reason why the Disciples could not "bear them now"(the words that Jesus was speaking) was because the Sprit was indwelling them at that time.

 

However, you cannot trust in whom you do not know and you cannot know except first God reveals himself to you. It is this revelation that is regeneration (Jn. 17:2-3; 2 Cor. 4:6 is the reverse of Ephes. 4:18).

 

Check the pronoun "you" and see if it is plural or singular. My position is that the new house of God which is a PLURAL imembers in one body was to be immersed in the Spirit on the day of Pentecost in keeping with the repeated Old Testament accreditation of every new house of God (Ex 40; 2 Kings 7). Hence, this is not an INDIVIDUAL indwelling but an INSTITUTIONAL indwelling as in 1 Cor. 3:16.

Again, check out the pronouns to see if they are singular or plural. I believe he is talking to the ordained representatives of His congregation in Jerusalem who habitually assembled with him from the baptism of John unto his ascension (Acts 1:21-22).

 

Okay, dear Brother, I am going into your wheelhouse, and I will attempt to tackle John 3:1-10. Okay, away I go!

John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Verse three shows that Nicodemus knew exactly Who Jesus was because he had apparently witnessed Him doing His miracles, and/or hearing Him talk to the people. Now, in verse four, Jesus is telling him the truth. But they were not indwelled with the Spirit untill the finished work of the cross. Even with all the miracles the Disciples performed, they did not get the indwelling untill Jesus breathed upon them, and then, and only then, did they receive the Spirit in the "inner man".

No where, can you find anyone indwelt with the Spirit before Jesus' ascension back to the Father.

 

1 Pet. 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I can go back into the Old Testament and produce a list of at least five different cases where the Spirit of God is said to explicitly indwell persons.

The Spirit has always been "with them" as individuals but He came to indwell them as a congregational body or the new "house of God" on the Day of Pentecost. This has nothing to do with their personal salvation but with there service in the kingdom of God as the "house of God...the pillar and ground of the truth."

 

Good punch there, sir. However, this does not state that the Spirit dwelled in them permanently. When the Spirit moved, they were able to prophesy of the times to come. Whether it was that God was going to destroy a people(Jonah comes to mind), that a drought/famine was to take place(Joseph and Elijah), they said so through the Spirit's moving.But to state that the Spirit permanently indwelt them goes against what the other passages I posted state.

Numbers 11:16-17
16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.

17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.



Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.



Haggai 2:4-5
4 Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, saith the LORD; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all ye people of the land, saith the LORD, and work: for I am with you, saith the LORD of hosts:

5 According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not.



Judges 3:9-10
9 And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.

10 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim.



Judges 11:29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.


Judges 14:5-6
5 Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him.

6 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.



So, here are several passages talking about great men of God, who had the Spirit moving upon them, but not in them. Could some have had the Spirit in them? Maybe. This isn't something worth fighting over. But, when the Spirit moved upon them, they knew what was taking place, and knew it was the Spirit. But to say they had the permanent indwelling, well, it sounds like Jesus said that they didn't, when He was talking to His Disciple in the book of John. I think that the Spirit may have filled them, they did what God wanted them to do, and then it left, and didn't take up His abode untill Jesus' work of the cross was finished. Thanks for the good chat. It has caused me to really ponder(and second guess) my belief regarding this matter. :thumbs:

May God richly bless you, my Brother, this weekend!!

i am I AM'S

Willis

 

It is how the church is built?

 

And to keep this thread in context of the OP, the OT saints could not have the Spirit moving upon them w/o faith, and faith is a gift..... :wavey:

 

Yes! We preach the gospel but the gospel comes in "word only" and not "in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance" (1 Thes. 1:4-5) unless God empowers the gospel to become his creative (Eph. 2:10; 4:24; Col. 3:10) word that calls light out darkness (2 Cor. 4:6) thus making the Gospel His effectual call.

 

You are confusing the indwelling of the Spirit with other ministries of the Spirit. Most of the texts you refer to as the Spirit coming "upon" a person (sometimes lost persons) are for special empowering or equipping to carry out some function.

In regard to David requesting that the Lord take not His Spirit from Him, this is in the context of EXPERIENTIAL fellowship, joy, and usefulness in regard to sin that He is confessing. He also claimed that in regard to the Lord's actual presence that the Lord never leaves Him:

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.


Again, the baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with personal salvation but with the public accreditation of the house of God. The New house of God consisted of living stones built up a spiritual house (1 Pet. 2:5; 1 Cor. 3:16). Every previous house of God was publically accredited by baptism in the Spirit (Ex. 40; 2 kings 7:1-3).

Again, all man kind has only two possible conditions "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:8) and "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:9) and those who do not have the indwelling presence of the Lord "are not of his" (Rom. 8:9).

Consider this. Is the human nature before the cross different than human nature after the cross? If so, then how could Paul quote Old Testament scriptures to describe the condition of fallen man (Rom. 3:9-18; Psa. 14:2)? Was Old Testament sinners saved by another gospel and another Christ? If so how could Jesus say BEFORE Pentecost that there is only two ways and only one way to heaven (Mt. 7;12-14) and that "NO MAN" comes to the Father by Him (Jn. 14:6). If so, then how could the New Testament writers claim that Old Testament beleived in the very same gospel by faith looking forward (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2)?

The Holy Spirit has always regenerated the saints. What Jesus calls "born again" the Old Testament prophets beginning with Moses called "circumcision of the heart." The Holy Spirit has always regenerated, indwelt, sealed, filled, come upon =empowered - filled (led) His people.

The New Testament promise about the Comforter has to do with a PLURAL saints as the new "house of God" congregational body not with INDIVIDUAL saints or individual salvation.