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Featured Fall Away, Hebrews 6:4-6

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by rlvaughn, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    To further clarify, do you mean born again believers can fall away into perdition, or mere professors (or something else)? Thanks.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes....if it means anything temporal as a physical judgment in this part of life, it will not do away with the second death...lk 16...the rich man believed in it.
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No....born again believers cannot perish. APOSTATES.....are those who profess, they taste, they are among the people of God, but are not known by Jesus.....the reapers are the angels who gather up all things that offend...they are cast.into he'll.
    1jn2:19.....they went out from us because they were not of us....if they had been of us....they would have no doubt continued with us.
    In Jude it says they were spots in your love feasts
    The wording of the book of Jude describes them as hidden wreaths just disguised below the surface of the water that can damage a ship.
    Clouds without water.....devoid of the Spirit....out woodenly literal friends most likely avoid such languages is confirmed in HEB 6:9
    We are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation.
     
    #23 Iconoclast, Feb 6, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    19 Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because ye are all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. [Josephus - 1.1 million perished in Jerusalem alone 70 AD]
    20 As they gather silver and brass and iron and lead and tin into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my wrath, and I will lay you there, and melt you.
    21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
    22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I, Jehovah, have poured out my wrath upon you. Ezek 22




    Every time God's wrath or displeasure is in view does require it to be all about eternal consequences. Fire is the most common symbol of God's wrath in the scriptures, and the short simile given in vv.7-8 is corporate, pertaining to apostate Israel which is what these Hebrews were falling away back to, thus crucifying Christ again.

    7 For the land [Gr., gh] which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God:
    8 but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned. Heb 6

    49 I came to cast fire upon the earth [the land; Gr., gh]; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
    51 Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth [the land, Gr., gh]? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
    56 Ye hypocrites, ye know how to interpret the face of the earth [the land, Gr., gh] and the heaven; but how is it that ye know not how to interpret this time?
    52 for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
    53 They shall be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; mother in law against her daughter in law, and daughter in law against her mother in law. Lu 12 [ Zechariah 11:6]

    Here we see the fire of God's wrath was manifested as 'division', which if you've studied the civil war that broke out among them 66-70 AD you know that more Jews were killed by Jews than by the Romans.

    That's the immediate fate of those falling away, "a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries" (10:27). How many were hell bound to begin with, who knows, but this:

    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Rev 18

    ....clearly implies that His people could be in danger of 'the fire that was intended for the adversaries'.

    31 In that day, he that shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away: and let him that is in the field likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot`s wife. Lu 17
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Disclaimer, I am responding to the Opening post and not to any of the follow-on posts.


    “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” (Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV) ​

    Van’s paraphrase: If someone has accepted the gospel (been enlightened) they have accepted the truth of God’s gift, brought by the power of the Holy Spirit and have recognized the goodness of the gospel and those believers that shared the gospel. If then, the people with knowledge of the gospel fall away, it is impossible to turn them back because as long as they are rejecting Christ and His gospel, there is no other way to turn to God.

    The key to this passage, in my view, is that it is God who chooses us and therefore after we hear the gospel and we make a commitment to Christ, as depraved as the commitment might be, it is God who puts us into Christ. If God does not accept our “faith” as heart-felt, for whoever believes in his heart will be saved, we enter the condition described in Hebrews 6:4-6, where we can fall away even though we have received the message (tasted the goodness of the word of God). In verses 7 and 8, the author of Hebrews points out that the gospel message must fall on good soil, cultivated soil or it will not produce a worthwhile result. Jesus explained this same concept in the parable of the four soils.
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Correction to post #24:

    "Every time God's wrath or displeasure is in view does NOT require it to be all about eternal consequences".
     
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Apostate Israel though will be reclaimed by God in thefuture!
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I would agree with entirely. The Old Testament was primarily within a physical framework. It was earthly. That compared to what was Heavenly. For example, an earthly Tabernacle which was the only means of entrance into the presence of God, and that by the High Priest alone, once a year. It was a parable for the time then present, the way into the Holiest of All (which is the reality the earthly figure represented) not yet made manifest. Nor the Great High Priest that the Levitical High Priest was a figure for.

    I think overlooking that physical framework also leads to overlooking that which is physical as it applies to Christians. Death, for example, is still a penalty for the Christian who sins.


    God bless.
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    There's a difference between accepting the Gospel and being enlightened.

    Unbelievers are enlightened to the Gospel, it is the only way the natural man can understand the Gospel and turn to Christ:


    John 16:7-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



    So to impose salvation into the context of Hebrews 6:4-6 is a mistake built on erroneous teaching.


    God bless.
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Apostates are waiting for the White Throne Judgment.
    Show a verse where apostates are reclaimed.
     
  11. loDebar

    loDebar Member

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    it is the same type of question as " Who died and made you king?"

    If you fall away, do you cruxify Christ a afresh? no. You can't

    The writer was not going to talk about salvation once again but move on the Christian growth , maturity of the believer,

    He says he may talk about if , if time permits.

    The confusing problem is with English sentance structure not Greek translation
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not all of national israel has been lost, as God has had a remnant unto Himself in each generation, due to elective Grace. correct?
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    That might be so...an elect remnant...however ...you used the "term" apostate, which describes those who fall away to perdition...
    You did not give a scripture verse to clarify what you meant as usual...In Hebrews 6 the writer contrasts the saved from the lost in verse9
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Nor does it always have to be about AD 70. Ezekiel 22 is clearly a judgement upon the Jerusalem of Ezekiel's day and a prophecy of the destruction that came at that time (c.f. 33:21).
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Never implied that it does.
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I think you'll find you did.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Actually I was using the passage to make the connection of 'fire' being a much used metaphor for God's wrath throughout the scriptures:

    "19 Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because ye are all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. [Josephus - 1.1 million perished in Jerusalem alone 70 AD]
    20 As they gather silver and brass and iron and lead and tin into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my wrath, and I will lay you there, and melt you.
    21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
    22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I, Jehovah, have poured out my wrath upon you. Ezek 22"

    I threw in the fact that Josephus records that 1.1 million perished in Jerusalem alone in 70 AD to give some meaning to passages such as Luke 12:49-53; Hebrews 6:7-8; Hebrews 10:27; etc..

    But there's not a doubt in my mind that God DID INDEED gather the flock of slaughter [Zechariah 11:4-7] into Jerusalem in 70 A.D..
     
    #37 kyredneck, Feb 14, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The great Tribulation is the period when God's wrath is poured upon upon an entire World system that disobeyed and denied God, not just israel, so has yet to happen!
     
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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