Eric said --The Jews already knew that God created the World in 6 days and rested the Seventh. They knew the truths of the Bible. What was "news" to them was that Jesus was the Messiah and that he came and died for our sins and rose again. "That" stumbling stone is what was tripping up the Jews.
The Gentiles were accepting it - the Jews were rejecting it. So "now" are you going to ask them to meet "tomorrow" on Sunday once things start getting ugly? In fact - the only "distinctive" you have for them is all the Messiah and Jesus-rose-again etc message that many today say is the "Sunday message". Since that is your FIRST message - How do you keep ignoring "Sunday after Sunday" and keep coming back "Sabbath after Sabbath" when ONLY the Gentiles are picking up on this -- and you started on day 1 with all they needed to know to come back "Sunday after Sunday".
In fact - they are teaching "Sabbath after Sabbath" - to people that are now fully aware - of the Sunday message. They continue to skip the logical Sunday service...
And the reason is...??
Any takers?
In Christ,
Bob
For SDA's on Sunday worship
Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by thessalonian, Nov 14, 2003.
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Romans 14 can not be used as a argument for abolishing something. It is only an argument for showing toleration of practice among what is already shown in God's Word to be optional.
For example - in Acts 15 they are reminded of the on-going Levitical law against eathing meat with blood in eat. "Eating all things" in Romans 14 is not a "license" to ignore the statement of Acts 15.
In the same way - we "know" about the "end" of the sacrificial - annual Sabbaths (predictive Laws - predicting events in the Gospel - in the life of the Messiah) by the clear fact of Hebrews 8-10 where we are told that God is setting the first aside to establish the second.
The earthly priests and the laws that govern their ministry - are set aside - and the heavenly priesthood of Christ begins.
It does not abolish the OT - it does away with the annual feast days - for which you need a Jewish Priest - to minister.
However even then - as we see in Acts 16 and 21 - Paul called the Jews to continue to obey them. And as we see in the OT - it was never a "requirement" for Gentiles to be circumcised or to participate in the Annual Feast days.
In Christ,
Bob -
It is ridiculous to insist that Saturday is THE day to worship GOD. We are to worship GOD EVERYDAY. Now to set aside a day other than Saturday is of NO consequence because Christ has FULFILLED the LAW. As SAVED BORN-AGAIN "CHRISTIANS", we are lead by the Holy Spirit who resides within us. We are bondservants to CHRIST and not the LAW... You have been saved from the LAW and you are not saved by it. It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the LAW.
I believe Sunday worship symbolizes our new freedom founded in CHRIST as does the eating of EVERYTHING once labeled UNCLEAN. -
Or are you saying it was "ridiculous" for God to set it as the Sabbath commandment in His Own Ten commandments in Exodus 20?
Or are you saying it was "ridiculous" for God to affirm it as a day of worship and holy convocation in Lev 23?
Or are you saying that it "will be ridiculous" to see God fulfill His word in Isaiah 66 and command that "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall All mankind Come before Me to Worship"?
Which of these actions are you calling "ridiculous"?
Just curious.
All of these - He perfectly fulfilled - just as you say.
In Christ,
Bob -
Since you understand how the annual feasts were shadows of Christ, Colossians 2:16,17 incudes the Sabbath, along with the "feast days" as shadows, and that's all I was saying, not that they were just "abolished" like they lost all their meaning altogether.
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If God said of the new earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before me to offer animal sacrifices" - as says in Isaiah 66 of the new Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" --- then "yes" we would have to ask ourselves if we have really judged rightly in saying that God is no longer interested in the practice.
Notice that God gave mankind the Holy Day in Gen 2:3 - before sin. It has nothing to do with "predicting" the coming of the Messiah to save Adam from a sin he had not committed.
Christ said that the "Sabbath was made for mankind - not mankind for the Sabbath" - the idea that He "removed that blessing from mankind" after the cross - is foreign to scripture.
In Christ,
Bob -
But the 7th-day weekly Sabbath is a "memorial" of God Creative act - from the very beginning. It does not "predict" anything to Adam or to anyone who follows God's command to honor His 7th-day weekly holy day given to mankind as a memorial of creation.
Thus - Col 2 limits itself to the "shadow Sabbaths" and further limits itself to correcting "abuses" of judging others - that Christ declares to be "abuses" even in the pre-cross era in Matt 7.
Correcting the abuse of a system done by others - is not the same as abolishing the system itself. So EVEN if you stick with the subject of the "Shadow Sabbaths" given in Lev 23 as annual holy days of rest - you can not use Col 2 to defend abolishing them. It only speaks to removing abuses of the Jews surrounding them.
IN Christ,
Bob -
But if it's truly for man, then god can give a new form of worship that serves the same purpose.
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hmm....it`s pretty hot around here
how about some study in history ?
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/1_ch09.htm
it`s about "worship in apostolic age"......just for a reference.
Gby,
-ken- -
#2. God said that "He rested -- therefore He sanctified, blessed and made it holy" speaking of that Genesis week in summary.
#3. God did not "write a command to Cain not to murder" but mankind was still obligated by that law and it was still a "sin" for Cain to murder.
#4. Christ said "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaking of the making of both. There is no hiding the fact that the 7th-day memorial of creation week was given in Gen 2:3 on the 7th day of creation week. In fact - that is the only thing that marks that 7th day of creation week. Hence our 7-day week.
#5. There is no place in scripture saying that the Holy Spirit is given in place of the Creator's 7th-day memorial of creation - made "for mankind" as a holy day in Gen 2:3.
In John 3 Christ states that the -pre-cross Jewish bible teacher "must already know" that it is "already a fact" that one must be "born of the spirit" to enter the kindgom of heaven. The Holy Spirit was not "optional" to the Gospel or salvation. The list of saints given in Heb 11 - are those born again by the Holy Spirit.
The Isaiah 66 statement about the New Heavens and New Earth - shows the "eternal" scope of the Creator's memorial of creation -
After all why should it be a "blessing for mankind" to obey God? Why should showing love for God and love for our neighbor in anyway "bless mankind"? Perhaps you do have a point there.
Whether that day could "also serve as a memorial of creation of mankind" as we find in Gen 2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11 by virtue of the fact that the Creator chose to add it to creation week, to rest on that day and to set an example for mankind - remains to be seen.
Since Christ said it was "made FOR mankind" in Mark 2.
Since the Creator said it was "A holy day" in Gen 2:3
Since the Creator's own summary of the Creation week "event" shows it to have been made holy by virtue of the "rest that God gave" then at that time.
Since God Himself declares that for all eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall All mankind come before Me to Worship".
That God was giving mankind the 7th-day memorial of His creative act in Gen 2:3 - as a prediction of the destruction of the world and making of a new World (something that has not yet happened) - does not appear to fit.
Particularly when we observe that EVEN in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall All mankind come before Me to worship".
In any case - we differ on this point - I just wanted to explore some of the reasons for the differences.
In Christ,
Bob -
"blessing" that is fulfilled by Christ.
"The day was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week, not on the ground of a particular command, but by the free spirit of the gospel and by the power of certain great facts which he at the foundation of the Christian church. It was on that day that Christ rose from the dead; that he appeared to Mary, the disciples of Emmaus, and the assembled apostles; that he poured out his Spirit and founded the church;690 and that he revealed to his beloved disciple the mysteries of the future. Hence, the first day was already in the apostolic age honorably designated as "the Lord’s Day." On that day Paul met with the disciples at Troas and preached till midnight. On that day he ordered the Galatian and Corinthian Christians to make, no doubt in connection with divine service, their weekly contributions to charitable objects according to their ability. It appears, therefore, from the New Testament itself, that Sunday was observed as a day of worship, and in special commemoration of the Resurrection, whereby the work of redemption was finished.691
The universal and uncontradicted Sunday observance in the second century can only be explained by the fact that it had its roots in apostolic practice. Such observance is the more to be appreciated as it had no support in civil legislation before the age of Constantine, and must have been connected with many inconveniences, considering the lowly social condition of the majority of Christians and their dependence upon their heathen masters and employers. Sunday thus became, by an easy and natural transformation, the Christian Sabbath or weekly day of rest, at once answering the typical import of the Jewish Sabbath, and itself forming in turn a type of the eternal rest of the people of God in the heavenly Canaan.692 In the gospel dispensation the Sabbath is not a degradation, but an elevation, of the week days to a higher plane, looking to the consecration of all time and all work. It is not a legal ceremonial bondage, but rather a precious gift of grace, a privilege, a holy rest in God in the midst of the unrest of the world, a day of spiritual refreshing in communion with God and in the fellowship of the saints, a foretaste and pledge of the never-ending Sabbath in heaven."
In light of this:
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Bob said quote:
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#5. There is no place in scripture saying that the Holy Spirit is given in place of the Creator's 7th-day memorial of creation - made "for mankind" as a holy day in Gen 2:3.
In John 3 Christ states that the -pre-cross Jewish bible teacher "must already know" that it is "already a fact" that one must be "born of the spirit" to enter the kindgom of heaven. The Holy Spirit was not "optional" to the Gospel or salvation. The list of saints given in Heb 11 - are those born again by the Holy Spirit.
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The fact that the blood of Christ had not yet been shed - did not stop God from applying the benefits of His blood, causing the totally-depraved to be "born-again" and even translating some without their ever having died - under the "One Gospel".
Christ was telling Nicodemus that he should already know these basic truths of salvation SINCE he was a teacher of the OT text.
Christ was coming -- from the very start - as the saviour of the World - because "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son" to be the Atonement for our sins. That was always the plan. The fact that the jews ALSO decided to rebell against their creator and God - was not "needed" to save the world. As Paul points out in Romans 11 - they made a mistake - but God was not "so-loving-just-the-jews" until they made that mistake. From the start - He so loved the World.
Bob said --
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The Isaiah 66 statement about the New Heavens and New Earth - shows the "eternal" scope of the Creator's memorial of creation -
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#2. In Isaiah 66 we are talking about the "new Heavens and New Earth" not about the earth prior to the 2nd coming.
#3. God declares "His purpose" is that All mankind keep the Sabbath "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship".
This clearly shows the scope was not limited to the Jews - was eternal EVEN in the New Earth of Rev 21 etc.
Also - Adam and Eve had nothing to "sacrifice" on their first Sabbath when as Christ said "the Sabbath was made for Mankind" - it was never true that you needed an animal sacrifice to celebrate the Creator's 7th-day memorial of creation week and His literal act of creating mankind.
Even - so we will be able to come before God - in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath" with "all mankind.
In Summary.
When God says - that in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall All mankind come before Me to worship" - your view must respond...
"Not only is that not true - but God never intended all mankind to be observing Sabbath even in the OT".
When Christ said "the Sabbath WAS made for MANKIND" your view has to be "no the Sabbath was only made for the Jews".
When God said in Exodus 20:8-11 that the making of the 7th-day as a holy day that is applicable to all mankind - was done via the act of God resting - and that this act alone justified the making of that day as a Holy day ...
Your view must say "no it did not. It was not until God gave the command at Sinai that there was any justification for keeping the day".
In Christ,
Bob -
Christ said "If you Love Me KEEP My commandments" - pre-cross to His pre-cross Jewish followers. The Commandments of God were fairly well known at that time - especially to the Jews.
That they would know this to include the 10 commandments is obvious. That they would know it to include the Deut 6:5 commandment to Love God with all the heart - as well as the Lev 19:18 command to Love our neighbor as ourselves - is also evident. That they might come to think of those commandments as "God's bad ideas" is not well supported in scripture.
Apparently the readers of James chapter 2 - were equally well informed on those points and had no misgivings about "the Commandments showing a lack of love for Christ". The point seems to be consistent with the Words of Christ "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments".
The real issue in our discussion has more to do with any of these commandments - and the topic of "Obedience vs Rebellion" and how that relates in any way to the Gospel and the New Birth.
In Christ,
Bob -
Bob said
2, 3: As I had said, this was conditional on Israel remaining faithful and fulfilling its mission to the world. Since the Old Covenant was in effect when this was written, it assumes it still would be when we entered the eternal Kingdom. No, this was not a "bad idea", but God was writing the lesson in Israel's history that Laws by themselves were not the solution to man's sin.
Also, Adam and Eve's "sacrifice" was the animals killed to give them skins as covering. Even though they did not sacrifice the animals, God did it completely for them, this set the principle.
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Clearly that idea is not found in John 3.
Worse! What we find is that based on exising scripture Christ argued this was ALREADY fact - and that Nicodemus was already accountable as an OT Bible teacher in Israel - for knowing and teaching this truth.
Praise God! One Gospel! One way of salvation in ALL ages!
The depraved sinful nature "apart from the Holy Spirit" is simply " to be in open rebellion against God". That is "not" what we find in Heb 11. That is not what we find in Matt 17 with Moses and Elijah. That is not what we find with Elijah and Moses - who are both taken to heaven.
God said "David is a man after My own heart" - only possible via the New Birth.
Saul prophesied in his rebellious state - but was not born again at that time. But the saints listed in Heb 11 - thousands and perhaps millions included by the statements made there - could ONLY have been born again to be the people that they are shown to be in that chapter.
In Christ,
Bob -
When Isaiah 66 hits the transition point - and the 2nd coming of Christ is described (just as we see Paul describe it in 1Thess 2) -- there is in fact "no" mention of "animal sacrifices" from then to the end of the chapter. But we DO have the "New Heavens and the New Earth" just as we see in Rev 21.
And we "DO have.. From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship".
Isaih 66.
15 For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many.
To be literally fulfilled at Christ's second coming. A worldwide - global scope.
17 ""Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat swine's flesh, detestable things and mice, will come to an end altogether,'' declares the LORD.
18 ""For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.
Again - to be literally fulfilled. Though possibly at the Rev 20 post-millenial resurrection of the wicked.
19 ""I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Rosh, Tubal and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations.
Though we have no animal sacrifices here - we do see what appear to be wounded people, weak or infirmed people "on litters" in the next section.
20 ""Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,'' says the LORD, ""just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD.
21 ""I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites,'' says the LORD.
But then the context returns to the New Heavens and the New Earth of Rev 21.
22 ""For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 ""And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,'' says the LORD.
The New Heavens and New Earth point is solidified - because that is the only time when all the wicked of this planet will have been turned into corpses - with unquenchable fire.
This can not reference any time prior to that.
24 ""Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.''
This is just impossible to miss.
In Christ,
Bob -
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Christ said "If you Love Me KEEP My commandments" - pre-cross to His pre-cross Jewish followers. The Commandments of God were fairly well known at that time - especially to the Jews.
That they would know this to include the 10 commandments is obvious. That they would know it to include the Deut 6:5 commandment to Love God with all the heart - as well as the Lev 19:18 command to Love our neighbor as ourselves - is also evident. That they might come to think of those commandments as "God's bad ideas" is not well supported in scripture.
Apparently the readers of James chapter 2 - were equally well informed on those points and had no misgivings about "the Commandments showing a lack of love for Christ". The point seems to be consistent with the Words of Christ "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments".
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I forgot to add - that James 2 is making the point that "we Christians" Are to "live and Act as those who are to be judged by the Law of Liberty".
Notice that the Royal Law he Quotes in James two is that of Deut 6:5 and also that of Lev 19:18.
Then the Law of Liberty - is simply a quote of the Ten Commandments.
There is no sense of "gasp!! We can't possibly keep those - because then salvation would be by works!".
The Point made here is that when it comes to "obedience" vs "rebellion" the Gospel never promotes "Rebellion".
So even though obedience does not "save us" - still we will be judged by these laws - and rebellion will never be the "model" for a Child of God.
As John said in 1John 2 -- the one who says he has come to know Christ and yet does not walk in harmony with the way Christ walked - is not telling the truth.
In Christ,
Bob -
We are spending a lot of time on whether the Sabbath will be kept in the Kingdom, but it is possible that God could have some special worship gathering on the sabbath). But in reality, don't you think we will come every day to worship Him? If the sabbath rest is "eternal", won't this state be 24/7? As I said, laws were not "done away", but instead, magnified. What was a one day a week affair will be everyday, and the one day a week worship was a foreshadowing of what Christ will bring all of into. We are to emulate that as much as possible now, and that is why the NT does not deal in mandatory once a week worship. (even though many soon after assumed it was simply moved to Sunday)
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Once again, noone is teaching the laws are done away. They are magnified (Matt.5), and actually, it's when they are magnified that we see that we have never really kept any of them at all. This is not to build an argument that "oh, we can't keep them so do what you want". We strive to live by God's standard in the spirit, not in the letter.
That is a good point. Rebellion is never "The way of the cross" nor is it what we find recommended in 1John2 where John tells us to walk even as Christ walked. He points out that if we claim to know Christ and yet do not walk in submission and obedience to God as He did - we are in fact not telling the truth.
I think we can at least agree on that basic.
In Christ,
Bob -
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When Isaiah 66 hits the transition point - and the 2nd coming of Christ is described (just as we see Paul describe it in 2Thess 1) -- there is in fact "no" mention of "animal sacrifices" from then to the end of the chapter. But we DO have the "New Heavens and the New Earth" just as we see in Rev 21.
And we "DO have.. From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship".
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14 Then you will see this, and your heart will be glad, And your bones will flourish like the new grass; And the hand of the LORD will be made known to His servants, But He will be indignant toward His enemies.
15 For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many.
17 ""Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat swine's flesh, detestable things and mice, will come to an end altogether,'' declares the LORD.
18 ""For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.
Notice it is world wide "the sword on all flesh" it is "all nations" it is the Lord God Himself coming with fire - as 2Thess 1 also points out.
The same clear language about the 2nd coming that we see both in the NT and OT - is used in Isaiah 66.
Even so - the same clear language about the New Heavens and New Earth is used in Rev 21 and in Isaiah 66.
Impossible to miss.
And the applicable scope is "clear" - it is "All mankind" for "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall All mankind come before Me to worship".
This shows that God's intent was the application of the sabbath to "all mankind".
No wonder Christ said "The Sabbath was MADE for Mankind" in Mark 2.
In Christ,
Bob
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