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Featured For Whom Did Christ Die?... By John Owen

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Aug 30, 2023.

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  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

    All the sins of all men.
    All the sins of some men, or
    Some of the sins of all men.

    In which case it may be said:

    That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
    That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
    But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

    You answer, “Because of unbelief.”

    I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!”... Brother Glen:)
     
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  2. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how Owen would have dealt with John 3:18? It seems that unbelief is singled out as a special type of sin.
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The op has an errant view of "elect" that is not found in scripture. The difficulty of such posts is that it assumes that definition is widely accepted and therefore can be used to initiate this conversation. Since there is a lack of agreement on when believers are elect then that foundation undermines any real discussion and only leads to talking past each other. Nothing fruitful can come of it.
     
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  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    A logical and troubling question flows from Owen's words
    Owen argues that Christ dying for sins means that unbelief (itself being a sin) should not prevent unbelievers from being saved. But if the atonement would save even those who never believe, then that seems to imply that faith is immaterial to salvation.
    The question then is how can faith making no difference in whether one is saved be reconciled with salvation through faith?
    "...we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand" Romans 5:1-2
     
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?" It is a commonly held principle even today that if a person does not believe then it makes the sacrificial atonement of Christ without effect for that person. Those who hold to this false principle put more on the belief of man than they do to the faithfulness of Christ. God is faithful. He will perform what he said he would do. He promised eternal life before the world began: Tit. 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began." God in covenant promised eternal life to the elect before the world began. God is faithful to his promises. Whether we believe or not is not going to make the faith of God without effect. All for whom Christ died for will live in heaven's glory world... Brother Glen:)

    Btw... Dave I don't believe Owen is singling out that unbelief is a special sin but that believers have made it one!
     
    #5 tyndale1946, Aug 30, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2023
  6. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Glen. No one on here esteems Owen any higher than I do. But I have noticed that Owen, and all the Calvinists who were preachers and teachers as well as theologians, had a balance about them. Owen was arguing against Arminianism when he stated the original thing you quoted, and if you have the same view of the atonement as he did - that it was an "actual" and not a potential taking care of sin then his argument is hard to refute. But Owen also said this: "Do not deceive yourselves; it is not an indifferent thing, whether you will come in unto Christ upon his invitations or no, - a thing that you may put off from one season unto another: your present refusal of it is as high an act of enmity against God as your nature is capable of."

    Owen was a good Calvinist. A "high Calvinist". But he also seemed to realize that the person hearing a sermon was a person living in real time. And the only way we as humans can know whether he is elect is by whether he believes and obeys the gospel. If you come to Christ, he will receive you, period. Owen did believe that if you do then that's how you can know for sure that you are elect and all those promises apply to you. Except for the evidence of belief and a changed life Owen rejected all other speculation about election. This should make all us take notice - the high Calvinist who wrote the definitive work defending a particular atonement also said that Christ himself cannot do anything for you if you won't come to him by faith.

    The sovereignty of God and the responsibility of men to hear and obey are BOTH true. And I can't reconcile that either.
     
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    They are unbelievers because they are condemned by the law, and so Christ didn't die for them. If Christ didn't die for a person, then they wont be granted the Gift of Faith to believe on Him, because they are condemned by the law.
     
  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Is the Gospel you heard and obeyed, did it include limited effectual atonement ? If not, it wasn't the Gospel !
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Faith IS immaterial to the eternal aspect of our salvation in which we are totally passive. It is however of great consequence in this temporal realm.

    2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Heb 4; See Romans 3:3-4

    Referring to those redeemed from the House of Bondage by Jehovah, they were preached the gospel that the Land of Milk & Honey was theirs's for the taking, and they rejected the gospel.

    Yet, even after all the wickedness Israel had done after God had redeemed them out of the House of Bondage (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

    He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21

    Even in unbelief and disobedience they were as righteous as Christ in the eyes of God. (Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

    But Israel still yet reaped in this temporal realm for their wickedness after being redeemed from the House of Bondage, they wandered for forty years in the waste places when they could have possessed the Land of Milk and Honey, the Sabbath Rest of God, i.e., the abundant life in Christ. Romans 14:17

    Yet during all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always.

    So you see, there were only temporal consequences for their unbelief. There were no eternal consequences. Christ's atonement for His own covers the sin of unbelief.

    5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
    7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ: 1 Cor 5
     
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  10. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    No. Whether or not the concept of limited effectual atonement is true or not, as Owen said, you do not speculate on whether or not you are elect. He vary clearly taught that if you come to Christ you will be saved.
    The gospel I heard was more like this:
    "Christ, in one word, has purchased a full forgiveness, if we are only willing to receive it. He has done all, paid all, suffered all that was needful to reconcile us to God. He has provided a garment of righteousness to clothe us. He has opened a fountain of living waters to cleanse us. He has removed every barrier between us and God the Father, taken every obstacle out of the way, and made a road by which the vilest may return. All things are now ready, and the sinner has only to believe and be saved, to eat and be satisfied, to ask and receive, to wash and be clean. And faith, simple faith, is the only thing required, in order that you and I may be forgiven. That we will come by faith to Jesus as sinners with our sins, trust in Him, rest on Him, lean on Him, confide in Him, commit our souls to Him, and forsaking all other hope, cleave only to Him, this is all and everything that God asks for."
    That is the gospel I was taught. The quote is from J.C. Ryle in his book "Old Paths". I can show you similar statements by Jonathan Edwards and by Owen himself. The idea that you would include limited effectual atonement as an essential part of the gospel is ridiculous. If I was a pastor and had people going around the church saying what you just said I would personally escort them to the door.
     
  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Your first sentence makes your theology clear "Faith IS immaterial to the eternal aspect of our salvation". You are a universalist. Good to know. I will treat your comments with all the respect they are due. Zero.
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Lol, I won’t sleep over eight hours tonight worrying about your respect. You’ve zilch respect for Sovereign Grace already.
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    First all you are addressing my yoke fellow in the Lord and him and I believe basically the same... We are not universalist in any way and believe in the True Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God and Christ does the saving without the interference of man... He WILL save ALL his Father GAVE him and not LOSE a one... Out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation is not universalism its a promise not a choice... A multitude no man can number and if we didn't help God in first creation what makes you think he needs our help in the new?... And you can treat my comments the same way and like kyredneck said I won't lose any sleep over it either... Brother Glen:)
     
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  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I have great respect for the Grace of God but you seem to thing by putting Sovereign in front of Grace it somehow changes it. What I do not respect is the way some on here abuse scripture so as to make it fit their theology. Silly people, the bible is the standard not their philosophy.
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    So I will respond to you the same way I did KY.

    I have great respect for the Grace of God but you seem to thing by putting Sovereign in front of Grace it somehow changes it. What I do not respect is the way some on here abuse scripture so as to make it fit their theology. Silly people, the bible is the standard not their philosophy.
     
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    If the Gospel being heard isnt inclusive of Limited effectual atonement, the Gospel hasn't been believed, its a false gospel.
     
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    @DaveXR650

    To me, this is not the Gospel, but a false Gospel, because the Death of Christ actually reconciled to God them He died for Rom 5:10

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life

    2 Cor 5:18-19

    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Everyone Jesus Christ died for has to their account, forgiveness of sins, its automatic by the simple fact Christ died for them, its a fact even while they are ungodly, unbelieving enemies.
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Is this true, and straight out of the Bible, or not?:

    "Yet, even after all the wickedness Israel had done after God had redeemed them out of the House of Bondage (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

    He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21"

    You silly man, consumed with your railings against His mercies.

    3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God?
    4 God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment. Ro 3
     
    #18 kyredneck, Sep 2, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2023
  19. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Well. That's just J.C. Ryle. What does he know.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I believe the bible, I would assume you do also. So I will ask you the same question KY.

    Is this true, and straight out of the Bible, or not?

    1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
    1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

    Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

    Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

    Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
    Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    Why do so many deny clear scripture?

    Rom 3:3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
    Rom 3:4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."
     
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