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Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ccdnt, Apr 25, 2007.

  1. Shiloh

    Shiloh New Member

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    Forfit, omit, forgo, lose, forget, ignore, overlook, relinquish, quit, renounce, leave, abandon, give up, let go, you are a ... [Moderator Warning: This post in violation of BB Posting Rules 3 and 4. Likewise, you are not allowed to question the salvation of another poster. This post is being brought to the attention of the BB Admin Council.]

    Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
     
    #121 Shiloh, Apr 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2007
  2. ccdnt

    ccdnt New Member

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    Not at all. I do believe that no man or anything else for that matter can pluck me out of the Father's hand. It would be very awkward to describe "pluck" as something one could do to himself. How can one "pull" himself away from something. Willing leave the Father's hand, yes...but, "pluck" himself from the Father's hand, no.

    This has been said over and over and there is really little point in saying it again...however, this is dealing with nothing being able to remove one that is in Christ from the Father's hand. This verse does not deal with whether or not one can willing leave the Father's hand. One has to read into this that this includes oneself.
     
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That's all the same...pluck...pull...jump...squeeze. Once in the Father's hand, NOTHING / NOBODY can remove you...including you.
     
  4. ccdnt

    ccdnt New Member

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    Are you trying to argue that all of the words you have listed here mean exactly the same thing? Surely you know this is not the case. Are you really prepared to defend that "forgetting" something is the same as "ignoring" it, for example?

    Why the name calling? Why the personal attacks? Not only this, but you are actually saying that since I do not believe in OSAS I must be an unbeliever? So to be a Christian, one must believe in this doctrine? The irony here is that usually one thing I see said a lot from those that believe in OSAS when debating with those that believe in some sort of CS is that the latter are "adding" to what is required for salvation. Is this not what you are doing by saying this?

    So you are really prepared to pass judgement on my standing before Christ based on my disbelief in OSAS? I would say that is very dangerous ground you are treading.

    I by no means deny any of the Bible. I would like for you to cite a particular posting of mine that gave you this idea. I believe the Bible to be the infallible Word of God.

    None of the verses you cited exclude the possibility of one choosing to willing leave Christ (apostatize).

    Also, I am not that familiar with the TOS of this particular forum, but I would imagine that directly attacking one's position with the Lord based on this thread would be a violation.
     
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Really? Even John 6:37?
    Sounds like you are reading into the text what is not there.
     
  6. ccdnt

    ccdnt New Member

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    John 10:28 (NASB) 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

    Some definitions of "pluck":
    to pull with sudden force or with a jerk; to pull or move by force; to give a pull at; to snatch

    So you really think that "plucking" is something that one can readily do to himself? How can you "snatch" yourself from something? This implies something other than oneself doing the action.

    Actually, "jump" could be used to describe someone choosing to willingly leave the Father's hand, since it could be said of them that they chose to jump out of His hand.

    "Jump" has a different meaning that "pluck".
     
  7. ccdnt

    ccdnt New Member

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    NASB-
    37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

    No problem here. This says nothing about what happens if the person chooses not to abide in Christ. Also, the tense of the verb "comes" is in the present tense as shown in YLT -

    37all that the Father doth give to me will come unto me; and him who is coming unto me, I may in no wise cast without,

    A person must continue to come to the Lord.

    As for some other Scripture:

    I John 2:24 - 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

    John 15:5-6
    5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
    6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

    To "abide" means to "remain with", to "continue" with, to "stay" with. How can a person remain with Christ if the person was not with Christ to begin with? This is dealing with those already in Christ.

    Here is the YLT of verse 5 - `I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from me ye are not able to do anything;

    This shows that "abide" is in the present tense here. A person must be presently abiding in/remaining in Christ.

    You know, I gave many verses in support of the possibility of falling away and hardly any have been dealt with. Have you looked at any of them? It seems as if most have been ignored and/or just vague comments have been made, such as, I took them out of context without it being explained how I took them out of context. I can repost them if you wish.
     
    #127 ccdnt, Apr 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2007
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    This is works based salvation, plain and simple. If you have to continue to do anything, you are no longer saved by grace through faith.

    What happens if you decided to aposticize your faith...and the Holy Spirit draws you back?
     
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Is continuing in your faith any more of a work than having faith to begin with?
     
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    We who ARE IN Christ Jesus ARE created FOR good works (Eph. 2:10)

    My reply was to "you must continue TO COME to the Lord". Once you are there...you're there. You either arrive or you don't. Continuing to arrive makes no sense. Justification is a one time event...not a process. Sanctification is the process those justified go through.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    For those that believe one can lose/forfeit their salvation, almost every "proof-text they use can be shown to be out of context.

    "Take the following passage for instance. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

    Your apparent position is that Paul here is addressing the brethren, as in those that are saved. I don't believe he is. The book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews. The key word in the book is "better." The contrast throughout the book is a better covenant, a better priesthood, a better sacrifice, and of course a better salvation. Everything is better. Within this group of "Hebrews" were some that were not saved, and thinking of returning back to Judaism. You cannot have both systems and be a Christian at the same time; just as you cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time. You must choose one or the other. This is Paul's emphasis throughout this epistle.

    A believing heart would in no way depart from the faith.
    However, among the Hebrews there were some that did not believe. They had unbelieving hearts. They had heard the gospel but had not accepted. They were thinking of returning back to Judaism. Paul was warning them about "that evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God." They were Jews. Rejecting the gospel and returning to Judaism would be departing from the living God and remaining in unbelief.

    Are there other verses that you have taken out of context that you think will prove that one can lose/forfeit their salvation?

     
  12. Oasis

    Oasis New Member

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    DHK
    Hi DHK,

    You are correct. The writer of Hebrews(I also believe it is Paul)addresses Christians as Holy brothers, not just brothers.
    "Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling..."-Hebrews 3:1
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    Heb 3:1 ¶ Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    HP: DHK, it would appear to me that the Apostle Paul was speaking to Christian believers, his brethren, in fact to be absolutely correct, his ‘holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling.’ Are you suggesting that unbelievers are referred to by the Apostle Paul as ‘holy brethren?’ Are the unsaved 'partakers of the heavenly calling?' Possibly your argument is with the Apostle having a senior moment or a slip of the pen, a mistake referring to those unsaved as ‘ holy.’ Could you possibly have another translation that clears this matter up and eliminates the ‘holy brethren’ and 'partakers of the heavenly calling' from the context, or does it even matter to you who is being specifically addressed and warned?

     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Are you sure you typed this correct? How can DHK's comments be viewed as being 'correct?'
     
  15. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Sorry Webdog, I misunderstood. :)
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Where do you get this ‘continuing to arrive?’ How does ‘continued obedience’ once you arrive equate to ‘continual arrival?’ Here you create a fictitious scenario by putting up your paper duck to shoot at that has absolutely no merit.
     
  17. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Yup. A forfeit is still a loss.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: DHK implies that the writer of Hebrews is not addressing Christian believers in chapter 3, and to say that the author is, would be paramount to taking the authors comments 'out of context.'

    Help me out here. I have listed eight versions here that all place the context of the chapter speaking directly to believers. Can anyone tell me what possible version DHK has been reading that would state differently?
     
    #138 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2007
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The Hebrews were being addressed. That is obvious from the title of the epistle. Within this group of Hebrews the majority may have been believers, but there was an element of unbelieving Hebrews. As a group they may be addressed brethren. But the warning is still addressed to those that are unbelieving and wanting to return to Judaism. The context of the passage bears this out. Actually, the entire letter bears this out. The whole letter is a contrast of what is better to what is not--and for that very purpose--to convince who have not yet been convinced of salvation by faith in Christ, not to draw back to their former Judaism. This is one of the main purposes of the letter.

     
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I brought up a specific passage in chapter 3. Who was this chapter specifically addressed to?
     
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