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Forfeiting Salvation versus Losing Salvation - What is the difference?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ccdnt, Apr 25, 2007.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The COC would disagree with you.

    That is a matter of opinion. I believe those verses are taken out of context, just as I showed you how the verse in Heb.3 was taken out of context. You may not be convinced with my explanation, but there it is, nevertheless, and you haven't given me enough to believe otherwise.

    I have read the other warnings as well. But what are they for? Who are they for? In what time period are they written for? To what people are they written for? Not everything is written to us, in this dispensation.
     
  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: It is impossible for one to give someone else enough evidence, that by the weight of evidence alone would necessitate the other accepting it as proof. This is yet another powerful evidence of the voluntary free will of man to accept or reject truth regardless of the veracity or weight of persuasion or influence.

    Blame or praise would be absurd if belief was necessitated on such grounds. We are created responsible moral agents, able to be the first cause of our intents including the intents formed to accept or reject any weight of evidence. Love is only possible in such a setting.

    We can only pray that each one of us remains open to the Lord, and willing at all cost to accept the truth that is revealed to our hearts, and order our lives in accordance to it.
     
  3. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    If you equate that with spiritual salvation, then that would be true.

    But, it's not.

    What does it mean to be in faith?

    What does it mean to be in Christ?
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    No text teaches that "unsaved" means "being IN CHRIST" and "STANDING by FAITH".

    Those who suggest that "IN Christ" and "Standing by your faith" is the Gospel way of saying "lost" -- need to provide some text to prove their point.


    In the mean time - just accept Romans 11 for what it says!



    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Mind showing where I even suggested that?

    Well, until you quit using "lost" and "unsaved" synonymously, there are going to be contradictions in Scriptures. (I know they are English words; I am referring to the ideas behind the words.)

    Only a saved person can become lost. The word is apollumi; perishing. You cannot lose something that you don't have.

    But, what is it that you are losing?

    If it's your spiritual salvation, then there are contradictions in Scriptures, and they need to be tossed out because they are useless.

    You can lose something alright! You can forfeit it: aionian life.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    When I point to Romans 11 as it reference those IN Christ being taken OUT "REMOVED" (as we see in John 15 as well) and that those IN Christ "stand only by their faith" -- Hope of Glory responds with ...

     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Until you can show that scripture says "lost is really saved"

    Or until you can show that scripture says "unsaved is really still saved"

    And given Romans 11 and John 15 you have to also show that being "removed from Christ" is "still saved anyway Christ or not"

    You are the one in desperate need of some support for your position.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Bob why do you still ask these questions. I know I have personally answered your charge. Instead of facing Scripture as it is given you make up your own contexts for the words and then expect everyone to follow your lead.

    Romans 11 is not talking about eternal salvation, yet just because you see certain "key" words such as faith, salvation, forgiveness etc. you continue to say that it's talking about eternal salvation.

    Why don't you try to prove your point that eternal salvation is actually the context. Give that a go and see what you come up with. And that doesn't mean give another 1-5 posts of color coded verses, but show how those verses are talking about eternal salvation. Can you do that Bob?
     
  9. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    As to the title of this thread, the answer is exactly and specifically - "NONE!!"

    Ed
     
  10. ccdnt

    ccdnt New Member

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    Care to explain why you believe that to be the case?
     
  11. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    In short!

    You ain't got it in the one case, and you ain't got it in the other case. How is that different, in the final analysis?

    A = A!

    Ed
     
  12. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    You forfeit your deposit, guess what? You've lost it.

    You forfeit a baseball game, guess what? You've lost it.

    You forfeit something, you've lost it.

    BTW, I've already posted on John 15, quite indepth. If it will let me post it (due to length), I'll post a transcript of a sermon I gave on John 15 a couple years back. Passages in brackets, you have to look up yourself.
    The Vine: [Matthew 13:1-9]

    This parable is talking about four different kinds of Christians: The ones who hear the word of the Kingdom of the heavens, but they do not understand the message of the Kingdom, so the wicked one snatched it away; the ones who received the Word of the Kingdom with joy, but did not endure when tribulations popped up; the ones who hear the message of the Kingdom, but are more concerned with this world; jobs, cars, bigger houses, women: whatever, the Kingdom did not come first (in the parable, he was fruitful at one time, because he became unfruitful). That’s 75% of Christians, at least by type, if not by numbers.

    [Matthew 13:23] Right now, I want us to concentrate on the 25% of Christians who are bearing fruit. They hear the word of the Kingdom, and understand it. [Epignosis] [Matthew 13:23] Verse 23 tells us that “he is indeed bearing fruit”; it’s emphatic! He is bearing the fruit and producing it. [“Bringeth forth” is “producing”.] He’s excited about the Kingdom of the Heavens. He is faithful. He is doing what it takes to be bearing fruit. He’s working! Some bring forth 100 fold, some 60 and some 30. But what is the vine? What are the branches? What is fruit bearing and what is fruit producing?

    [John 15:1-8] Verse 1 tells us in a few words, what the vine is. Jesus is speaking and says, “I am the true vine”. Literally, it says, “I am the vine, the true”. This is very emphatic that Jesus is telling them that he is the genuine vine; He’s not a substitute. It also says that His Father, God, Yahweh is the husbandman; God is the one who cultivates. This could not be any simpler: Jesus the Christ is the true vine.

    Psalm 80:8-11 says, “Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it. Thou preparedst room before it, and didst cause it to take deep root, and it filled the land. The hills were covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof were like the goodly cedars. She sent out her boughs unto the sea, and her branches unto the river.” A vine grows over the walls and goes everywhere!

    But, in John 15, Jesus says, “I am the true vine”. Jehovah had planted a vine brought out of Egypt. This is Israel after the flesh, but Israel was not the true vine. The true vine was Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, the anointed Son of God. The true vine was God’s Son, whom he also brought up out of Egypt. Jesus presents himself as such to His disciples. This is distinctively talking about His role here on Earth.

    The disciples would have considered Him as the greatest branch of the vine, but as such, He would have only been a member of Israel. He was not simply a member of Israel; He was the vessel, the source of blessing, according to the promises of God. The true Vine, therefore is not Israel; quite the contrary; the true Vine is Christ in contrast with Israel, but Christ planted on earth, taking Israel's place, as the true Vine. The Father cultivates this plant on the earth. There is no need of a husbandman in heaven. Those who are attached to Christ, as the remnant of Israel, the disciples, need this culture. It is on the earth that fruit-bearing is looked for. The Lord therefore says to them, "Ye are clean already, through the word which I have spoken unto you"; "Ye are the branches." Judas, perhaps, was taken away, and so also were the disciples who walked no more with Him. The others should be proved and cleansed, that they might bear more fruit or produce more good works.

    Look with me here in verse 2 [John 15:2]: We know who the vine is, and we know who the husbandman is, but what about the branches? Like everything else in the Bible, the Bible will answer itself. You just have to look. We don’t have to look very far sometimes. Verse 5 tells us the answer: “I am the vine, you are the branches.” Who is Jesus referring to?

    The “you” is plural, or as it’s said by those who speak proper English, “ya’ll”. He’s talking to disciples; He’s talking to Christians. Everyone who is a Christian is a branch. We’re the branches. God the Father is the husbandman or the farmer; the one who is cultivating. Jesus is the vine, the true vine. We’re the branches.

    Verse 2 tells us that we are to be fruitful. What is the fruit of a Christian? Is it another Christian? Is the fruit of a vine branches? I’ve heard it taught that the fruit of a Christian is another Christian. As branches, if all we produce are more branches, we will not have been profitable branches. I’ve actually heard it taught that we will produce seeds. But what does a seed produce? Another vine. I don’t think we’re to produce more Christs. If we’re not to produce branches, and we’re most certainly not to produce vines, what are we to produce?

    [Judges 9:13] The fruit of a child of God is not another child of God, but fruit that will cheer the hearts of both God and man. If I am producing the kind of fruit that glorifies the Father, I am being a blessing to you. If you are producing the kind of fruit that pleases the Lord you are blessing me. We are to be a blessing to each other and to the saints.

    [Hebrews 6:7-10] These verses deal with blessing the saints and the ministers; fruit bearing. The earth bears fruit, God bears fruit, and we bear fruit; we are to bear good fruit and not thorns and thistles.

    This passage doesn’t quite convey the true meaning of the Greek. The way this is translated, it puts the contrast between two kinds of soil; one is well watered and fertile and the other is not watered and is sterile. This sort of contrast would illustrate the difference between those who have enjoyed hearing the gospel and those who have not. To the contrary, this passage puts the contrast between two classes of Christians under equally favorable conditions, out of which they develop into opposite results. A little expounding would better render it, “but if it (the ground that receives the rain) bear thorns or thistles,” it’s rejected or disqualified or near unto a curse.

    This enhances the idea of “rejected”. This land that has benefited from the rain, if it continues producing thorns and thistles, is exposed to the possibility of abandonment to perpetual barrenness.

    The Greek word translated as “thistle” (briars), is “tribolos”. It comes from the Greek words for “three” and “dart”; having three darts or points. It’s talking about a star thistle. It’s a word that describes a ball that rested on three iron spikes with a forth one that projected upward. They were scattered over the ground by Roman soldiers in order to impede the enemy’s cavalry. A “tribulus” is a kind of thistle. It’s referring to the exact opposite of fruit-bearing; it’s talking about hindering the saints.

    If we are ministering to the saints, by bearing fruit, we are doing it by a work and labor of love.

    Now, remember, not all Christians are saints. Saints are those Christians that obey the commandments of God. They’re being holy in their practical, day-to-day living. That doesn’t mean that you’re perfect; it means that you love God and you love His commandments. And when you do fail; when the temptation, the monster gets in the armor because you put down the shield of faith for a moment and that dart comes in and hits you and your garments are spotted like it says in Jude 23, you go to Jesus Christ, your high priest and you confess your sins. And He is faithful and just to forgive you of your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness. If you do this, you’ll be set apart as a sanctified one for an inheritance in the coming millennial kingdom. These are saints.

    If we are ministering to the saints, that ministry will not be forgotten by God. We bear fruit by labor.

    Just as the fruit of God is not another God and the fruit of the Holy Spirit is not another Holy Spirit and the fruit of the vine is not another Messiah, the fruit of a Christian is not another Christian. The husbandman cultivates another branch. The fruit of the vine, if Jesus is the vine, and the word says he is, is not another Messiah. The fruit of a Christian is the ministry that you produce for others. If God is the husbandman and Jesus is the vine and we are the branches that produce and bear fruit, then the Holy Spirit can be likened to the sap that flows through the vine into the branches to sustain them and help them be fruitful.

    Fruit is how you treat your brother. [Galatians 5:22-24] God, through the Holy Spirit expects us to do works that are a blessing to our brethren. Who are our brethren? Matthew 12:50 tells us that our brethren are those who are obeying God. How can we tell who our brethren are? Some are easy to spot. Look with me in [Matthew 25:37-40].[FONT=&quot]
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  13. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Bearing fruit is work! Acts 16:31 says, “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and continue in good works, and you shall be saved.” It doesn’t say that, does it? It simply says “believe”, one time plus nothing else. Spiritual salvation does not require any works; it doesn’t require being fruitful; it requires only to believe. Bearing fruit is not talking about salvation, but it’s talking about works that occur after you’re saved that please the Lord and this obedience results in rewards in the coming Millennial Kingdom.

    What is it that lets us bear fruit? Ephesians 2:8,9 says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast”. This passage seems to say that we are saved by grace through faith. Grace and faith are not mentioned in Acts 16:31, so how are they used in this passage? In a nutshell, what Ephesians 2:8 is saying is this: “Having been saved, ye endure by grace through faith.” Verses 8 and 9 of Ephesians 2 are not dealing with salvation because the Greek grammar plainly states that salvation occurred in the past and this salvation continues to the present. The gift of God in this verse is grace and not salvation. Grace is what we use to bear fruit.

    What is the grace of God? 2 Corinthians 12:9 says, “And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” How do we get the power of Christ? The answer to this question is in Romans 5:2; “...we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand...” If we make shipwreck of the faith, then grace will not be available for us to endure in times of testing. We need the grace of God if we expect to serve Him in an acceptable manner. Hebrews 12:28 says, “...Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” If we cannot access the grace then we cannot expect to “...receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ,” as it says in Colossians 3:24. Grace must reign! Romans 5:21 says, “So might grace reign through righteousness...” Grace does not reign just because we are saved. The verb “might reign” in this verse is subjunctive and indicates that grace might not reign. Grace reigns if we continually come to the throne of grace as in Hebrews 4:16; “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”

    Hebrews 11:1 says, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith is the substance that allows us to please God. Hebrews 11:6 says, “But without faith it is impossible to please him...” Only the just; the obedient, can live by faith. Faith gives substance to grace. Romans 5:2 tells us, “...we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand...” If we do not access grace by faith we will not have the power of God we need to endure. If we do not access grace by faith, we will not bear fruit.

    What are works for? [James 2:14,17-26] Works in James are works that make faith profitable. We are justified by our works. We endure by grace through faith. How?

    [John 15:2] That word that is translated as “taketh away” is the Greek word airo. The primary definition of the verb airo is to lift up or to raise or to lift from the ground. In the LXX, we see this word used several times, such as the Testament of Solomon, Genesis 40:16; 45:23, 35:2 and many other places.

    Matthew 4:6 says, “And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up (airo; same word), lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone”. Revelation 10:5 says, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up (airo) his hand to heaven”. Acts 27:13 says, “And when the south wind blew softly, supposing that they had obtained their purpose, loosing thence (weighed the anchor; airo), they sailed close by Crete”. Kathairo is from “kata” (down) lift, so it means to tear down or to unlift. You can find it in a few places such as Mark 15:36, which says, “And one ran and filled a sponge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down (kathairo).” Verse 46 of that same chapter, Joseph of Arimithea “bought fine linen and took Him down (kathairo).”

    I spent a lot of time growing up on a farm, and one of the things that we raised were grapes, mostly muscadines and scuppernongs. Do you know what we would do when we discovered a branch that wasn’t bearing fruit? We’d support it. We would build a trellis and lift it up, off the ground! Grapes don’t usually bear fruit when they’re down on the ground.

    Verse 2 in John 15 is saying, “Every branch in me not bearing fruit, He lifts up!” He supports us; He provides us grace. Verse 6 tells us if we’re not abiding in Him, we will be cast out. He lifts us up, at least for a little while, if our hearts are after Him, even if we’re not producing fruit. If we continue in being unfruitful, we’ll be cast out. We won’t lose our salvation; that can’t become unsaved. But, we’ll lose out on our inheritance or the rewards in the age to come. Lifted up by grace.

    What about those who are producing fruit? Look in verse 2. [John 15:2 last half]. He’s pruning those who are being productive so they can be more productive.

    I want you to notice a correlation here between John 15 and Matthew 13. In Matthew 13, there are some that bear 100 fold, some that bear 60 fold, and some that bear 30 fold. In John chapter 15, there are those that produce fruit. They are pruned so that they may bear more fruit. Those who are abiding in Him (present, active), and therefore He’s abiding in them, what do they bring forth? They bring forth much fruit. Fruit, more fruit, and much fruit.

    But, He’s pruning those who are being productive so they can be more productive. Is pruning a pleasant experience? No! It’s painful! That’s the same word as we were looking at in Mark: Kathairo. Those who aren’t being fruitful, he lifts or supports, at least for a while; those who are being fruitful aren’t in need of being lifted up; they have a firm foundation already. But, the fruitful branches can expect tribulation and pruning in their lives.

    Dr. Ironside once told this story about a woman who came up to him and asked him to pray that she would have more patience. He said, “Let’s pray right now”, bowed his head and said, “Oh, Lord, please bring tribulation upon this dear lady.”

    She interrupted him and said, “No, no, no! You misunderstood! I want patience.” What does Romans 5:3 tell us? It tells us that tribulation brings about patience or endurance. Those that are being productive; those bearing fruit; can expect tribulation. They can expect to be pruned. If the fruit is not used and replaced, it rots on the branch; then what good is it? We are to continue in being productive and producing fruit.

    Just because our lives are going well doesn’t mean that we are being pleasing to God. Of course, just because our lives are going well doesn’t mean that God’s unhappy with us, either. Much of it may be attitude. When I broke my ankle, I had the comfort of knowing that God would provide and God had a purpose and a plan for my life. Without that comfort, this may well have been devastating.

    God doesn’t unjustly cause tribulation, but He permits it. He also will not allow more than we can handle. He will lift us up and protect us from tribulation that is too much. What will He do to those who cause tribulation to befall us? [2 Thessalonians 1:6-8]

    Hosea cries in Hosea chapter 10, "Israel is a vacant vine. The fruit is equivalent to it". Israel failed to gladden the hearts of either God or men. Christ came and did both. Jesus is the vine, Jehovah is the husbandman, we are the branches. We’re to produce fruit; we’re to produce the fruit that cheers the heart of God and men. If we’re being unproductive, God will support us for a while; if we’re being productive, we can expect pruning and tribulation that we may be more productive. We’re to abide in Christ; we’re to be after His heart, and if we permit Him to abide in our heart, we will produce much fruit!
     
  14. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    If we’re unproductive for too long, watch out! At a certain point, we will be cast forth as a branch and burned! We will lose our inheritance, and we won’t get another chance. We’ll still be saved; that can’t be taken away, but our crowns and rewards will literally be up in smoke! It’s all about our rewards and crowns! It’s about our inheritance!

    We’re to produce good fruit and not thorns and thistles; don’t cast tribulations into the paths of others!

    Why are we to produce good fruit? To be a blessing to the saints. Why are we to be a blessing to the saints? In order to be able to inherit the Kingdom that was prepared for us from the foundation of the world. We’re to produce good fruit.
     
  15. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    You might want to re-read this part. (Or correct the sermon.) Matt. 13: 3-9 is the parable of the sower, and does not mention "the vine" in any way. And I did 'look it up for myself'.

    Ed
     
  16. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Did you read beyond that point?

    BTW, Matthew 13:3-9 is the parable of soils, not the sower. It's about different kinds of soils and how much fruit they bear.

    Then, only 2 paragraphs later, comes this part:

    [John 15:1-8] Verse 1 tells us in a few words, what the vine is. Jesus is speaking and says, “I am the true vine”. Literally, it says, “I am the vine, the true”. This is very emphatic that Jesus is telling them that he is the genuine vine; He’s not a substitute. It also says that His Father, God, Yahweh is the husbandman; God is the one who cultivates. This could not be any simpler: Jesus the Christ is the true vine.

    Just because the beginning passage is not in John 15, does not mean that the sermon is not on John 15.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hope of Glory --

    We already agreed that Christ was the vine in John 15. Not disputed.

    We already agreed that the disciples - the followers the believers in Christ (My word abiding in you and you abiding IN Me) are the branches.

    We already agreed that the Father is the one that prunes and then for branches not bearing fruit "removes them from Christ" leaving them to wither - die and be burned in the fire.

    And MOST of us agreed that "apart from Christ there is no salvation".

    But I think some here are arguing for "salvation apart from Christ".

    That is really the only debate on that issue.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    This interpretation of these passages often has the reverse effect of the "fruit" of cheering up our bretheren. Instead, we just coldly throw these scriptures at them, because "their pain is good for them", and then judge them if they do not go through it with "the right attitude" (further adding to their distress).

    But many of these passages are being taken out of their context. Here is a sample:
    1 Cor.10:13, and James 1:2,3. "There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that all of you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that all of you may be able to bear it". "count it all joy when all of you fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience",
    and also passages like Rom.5:3 and others about "being happy in suffering" From these passages, it is for all purposes taught that the suffering person's pain is good for them! The way the teaching goes; is that if God is allowing this painful circumstance, He knows it is good for what He wants to make you into (His plan for your future, or just "molding you to the image of His Son"), and you can handle it. It is even taught that when you ask God for patience, He responds by "sending" hardships which supposedly "develop patience in you" —if you respond the right way! (So we're actually asking for it!) But these all have in their context the persecution of the day, and their deliverance from the system of the Law (the temple institution, which was actually the instigator of much of that persecution). So these are not to be applied to people suffering just any "pain" today, which is common to all of man in this fallen world, and not specific persecutions for the faith.

    The problem in these passages is that "Trials" and "temptations" are read as "painful circumstances". But the word translated "temptation" (peirazo/peirasmos) means just that: temptation. Even "try/trial" (dokimos) used here conveys a similar meaning. (other words; such as purosis, "fiery trial", or thilipsis, "pressure/trouble" address painful situations, but these are not used here! Strong's does say that peirasmos "by impl." means "adversity"; but this is from a projection of the common misunderstanding of the word; and not its actual definition based on how it is used in the text!) If the common interpretation of this being God "sending tests" were right, then the Bible blatantly contradicts itself; because James then says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed". This is the same word used in Cor. and we see that it means what we commonly understand as "temptation to sin"; not a painful situation. Yet how many times do we see Christian teachers, counselors and books tell a suffering person "God brought this hardship into your life to test you. You can bear it no matter what it is, because He said you could, and He did it for your good". "Accept it from the hand of the Lord". If he rejects it; complains too much, etc, then he is "despising the chastening of the Lord"*. If that is what "test" (tempt) means, then they are the ones contradicting scripture and accusing God, not the sufferer who says the situation is too much for him to bear!

    Now, to use persecution as an example of what "tempting" was; when the Christians were being persecuted; it was a painful circumstance, indeed; but they were at the same time being tempted to either renounce Christ, or return evil for evil. Thus; they were also being "tried" or "tested". The trial or test itself was not the pain or even the circumstance itself (and thus not what was "good for them", or given by God for their "good"), but rather the temptation to do wrong! It's resisting temptation to sin that makes us grow! Else, should we tell children that have been molested (who generally have severe emotional damage, that many cannot recover from) that if God allowed this, then it must be good for them, regardless of what they feel? Most would not say that directly; but ultimately, it is what they believe! (If the person complains too much, questions God and doesn't get over it, then they might eventually tell him that when they run out of patience, after all, they are "sinning" by not getting over it!)

    The commonly used 2 Cor.12:10 (“thorn in the flesh to buffet me”) involves a heavenly vision Paul was given, which might have caused self-exaltation. The ["sufficient"] "grace" used there actually is the same "charis" meaning "unmerited favor", involving once again salvation from the curse of the Law. (which is gradually worked out in growth). Let us not overgeneralize something like this. Heb.12 "run with patience the race set before us", and "chastening of the Lord", doesn't even say it is speaking of physical tribulation. The previous chapter is the "faith hall of fame" which mentioned some saints who suffered as inspiration; along with Jesus Himself right in v.2 and 3; but the immediate context of this passage seems to be personal sin. (in fact, v.4 says their struggle hasn't even come to "shedding of blood" yet!) The "chastisement" is to be "rebuked", meaning conviction (see Greek). Even "scourge" allows a figurative meaning, so this is spiritual, not physical or emotional torment!

    Finally, as for the "pruning", The key word there, "kathairo", meaning "to cleanse", or to "prune"; fig. to "expiate" (it's where the word "catharsis" comes from). This is always assumed to be "unpleasant circumstances", but the passage says nothing about that. Once again, conviction is what God prunes or cleanses us with, (and it can be painful in a way), but there is nothing in this to suggest God manipulating circumstances in the material world to some unfavorablle condition just to get at us.

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    This is all very important, especially in adiscussion of eternal security, because many teachers do use many of these passages to deny people's walk with God or even salvation based on their attitude toward general pain not being right, which they interpret as "fruit" and "endurance". But you end up actually teaching a works-salvation (and trusting in one's self)when these passages are not taken in context. That in addition to not bearing the "fruit" of patience with, and compassion towards one another.
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I agree with this last statement, because God would never do anything. ‘just to get at us.” Not withstanding, you fail to make your point that God indeed could in fact send physical suffering for our benefit.

    How do you know what in fact why Paul received the thorn in the flesh? I don’t remember God telling us the circumstances as to why He sent it or what exactly it entailed, do you?
     
  20. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    That's precisely the point! We keep speculating on God's purpose, but then telling people we can't understand it when we can't answer why (just like Calvinists with reprobation, Catholists with real presence, etc); instead of just trying to comfort the people. All of those scriptures we use have a definte context. Most of it about the Christian persecution by the Temple institution in alliance with Rome, they were experiencing. Today, to go up to a person suffering and tell them, "Oh, God is doing this for your own good; Oh, your attitude is not good enough! If you want to receive "grace", you will have to grin and bear it", will cause more distress (But it does sell millions in teaching media, engagements, etc).
    So just leave off the extrabiblical speculation in the first place, and keep those passages in their original contexts. And with Paul's thorn in the flesh, the context is given: a heavenly vision Paul was given, which might have caused self-exaltation. We are not to project this onto everyone we see suffering today.
     
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