Would it be better to run along lines that what it means to be a "Jew" has now changed in the NT?
Food for thought.
Former SBC President: Jews REMAIN God's Chosen People
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by LadyEagle, Dec 20, 2003.
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Land Promises?[/quote]Yep. And all those verses are true. I have no problem with that. But here is what you forget. 1) The word "olam" means for a very long time, or forever. So the land promise could be a promise for an extended period of time. The Jewish nation has been in shame for a very long time (as Jer 25:5indicates). 2) The land promise was a promise to leave in peace. That has not happened much. 3) The land promise was repeated in the prophets, long after all of these verses you cite here. What that shows us is that none of these verses are the fulfillment of that land promise to Abraham.
In teh biblical teaching of the kingdo, you study what the kingdom is and then you study the church. You find that they are two different things. The kingdom is just that ... a political, earthly kingdom with social, ecclesiological, moral, and political programs. It is the reign of a king of people. The church is not. YOu really need to read McClain's book "The Greatness of the Kingdom." I know I have recommeded it before and I doubt you have read it. The kingdom described in the prophets is so totally dissimilar to the church that it is remarkable that anyone with a straight face can argue that they are the same.
In addition, you have Acts 1, where the disciples clearly expected a political earthly kingdom and Christ did not correct them. You have Acts 3 where Peter preaches that the kingdom (time of restoration of all things) will come when the Jews repent. There are other NT passagse as well.
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Originally posted by Tim:
A few verses from the N.T. which describe believers as "chosen":
Eph. 1:4, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10
I think we could also include the use of the term "elect"--but that would be a very long list.
I'm sure you're familiar with these passages, so I'm not sure why you asked. Maybe I missed your point.Click to expand...
YOu said, And interestingly the word "chosen" under the conditions of the New Covenant refers to those who believe in Christ (Jew or Gentile). That is what I asked for Scripture to support. I don't doubt that the word "chosen" refers to those chosen by God to believe for salvation. But you associated it with the New Covenant. And the New Covenant in Scripture is made with Israel, not with "those who believe in Christ (Jew or Gentile)." They will believe in Christ to be sure. But the New Covenant will be made with the Jews. We as believers in teh church age (whether Jew or Gentile) participate in the blessings of the New Covenant. We are not technically parties to the New Covenant. -
"This is the blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Mat. 26:28)
PL,
Jesus described the core of the N.C. above--He started it with a faithful remnant of the Jews indeed, but I'm also a part of it--(I hold to the faith of Abraham and am one of his heirs through, Christ, the son of David.) I'm a party to the covenant, for His blood was even shed for me, a gentile by natural birth. Though in "time past [we] were not a people, but now are the people of God." (1 Pet. 2:10)
Tim -
Originally posted by Tim:
Jesus described the core of the N.C. above--He started it with a faithful remnant of the Jews indeed, but I'm also a part of it--(I hold to the faith of Abraham and am one of his heirs through, Christ, the son of David.) I'm a party to the covenant, for His blood was even shed for me, a gentile by natural birth. Though in "time past [we] were not a people, but now are the people of God." (1 Pet. 2:10)Click to expand...
You participate in the blessings of the NC for certain. We all do. But that does not make up parties to it. Your attempt at a verse does not say what you need for it to. This is yet again a place where rigorous exegesis needs to rule the day. Talk about what the text says ... -
I participate in the NC without being a party to it?
Participate-"To take part, join or share with others; to share in, partake of" (American Heritage Dictionary)
Tim -
Originally posted by Tim:
I participate in the NC without being a party to it?
Participate-"To take part, join or share with others; to share in, partake of" (American Heritage Dictionary)
TimClick to expand...
I don't mean to rude or condescending, but please read what I write rather than what you think it should say. You have now done it twice in this thread.
Look again at what I said and look at what you said and you will see they are two very different things. It is very hard to have a conversation when you keep changing the topic. -
The land promise was repeated in the prophets, long after all of these verses you cite here. What that shows us is that none of these verses are the fulfillment of that land promise to Abraham.Click to expand...
So was Mark also wrong?
Mark 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled , and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel
No, Mark was right. But they didn't repent. Therefore, the kingdom did not get established. It was taken away from them to be given to a nation of manifests the fruit of it, a reference to Zechariah's prophecy of Zech 12 where he talks of the time when Israel will repent and accept the Messiah.Click to expand...
Lets take a look at Zech 12.
Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
Now lets see when it was fulfilled:
John 19:36 For these things came to pass , that the scripture might be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
You preach "clear scripture" how can this be any more clear?
Was it not fulfilled in the 1st century? Too put that into the future you must believe that modern day Jews pierced Jesus.. .. And preterist are called anti-semetic. :rolleyes:
YOu really need to read McClain's book "The Greatness of the Kingdom." I know I have recommeded it before and I doubt you have read it.Click to expand...
In addition, you have Acts 1, where the disciples clearly expected a political earthly kingdom and Christ did not correct them.Click to expand...
However He does clearly correct the false assumption of an earthly Kingdom.
Jesus told Pilate in John 18:36-37, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Pilate asked, "Art thou a king then?" Jesus replied, "Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness of the truth." It is quite obvious that Jesus was indicating that his kingdom was spiritual and not physical.
Is Jesus a King? If so He is a King with no Kingdom.
In Luke 17:20-21, when asked when the kingdom would come, Jesus replied that, "the kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or Lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you "
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Sure sounds spiritual to me, but of course I guess I'm just reading that into the text.
You have Acts 3 where Peter preaches that the kingdom (time of restoration of all things) will come when the Jews repent.Click to expand...
quote:
So the prophecies of the Kingdom being established during the Roman empire did not come to pass? (Dan 2:39-45)
Those prophecies weren't about the kingdom being established during the Roman empire.Click to expand...
I leave you with this:
Part of an article by Marvin Jacobs:
. As long as man thinks only in physical terms he cannot grasp the nature of the eternal kingdom, and therefore will draw many wrong conclusions regarding the fulfillment of the prophecies regarding that kingdom. It has caused many either to ignore or try to explain away many very clear and unavoidable time statements . If Christ's kingdom is a spiritual one, then one's first thought should be spiritual. Some make physical applications to everything until forced to look to the spiritual. It really should be the other way around. If one finds apparent conflict in his understanding, it is probably because he is failing to see the spiritual and needs to spend some more time studying. -
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tim:
I participate in the NC without being a party to it?
Participate-"To take part, join or share with others; to share in, partake of" (American Heritage Dictionary)
TimClick to expand...
I don't mean to rude or condescending, but please read what I write rather than what you think it should say. You have now done it twice in this thread.
Look again at what I said and look at what you said and you will see they are two very different things. It is very hard to have a conversation when you keep changing the topic. </font>[/QUOTE]PL,
Don't worry about being rude. Though we bumped heads often, I don't think you've ever called me antisemetic, so I appreciate that.
I don't see how I changed the subject though. My last point was that we (all believers) are indeed a part of the New Covenant. You said we weren't, but that we participated in it's blessings. So what blessings of the NC can we participate in without being a part of it? And what part of the NC are we left out of?
In Christ,
Tim -
Originally posted by Grasshopper:
If you have those verses I would like to study those further.Click to expand...
So the time wasn't fulfilled. That would make it a false statement.Click to expand...
Lets take a look at Zech 12.
Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
Now lets see when it was fulfilled:
John 19:36 For these things came to pass , that the scripture might be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
You preach "clear scripture" how can this be any more clear?Click to expand...
John is pointing out that the piercing by the Jews had taken place.
Was it not fulfilled in the 1st century? Too put that into the future you must believe that modern day Jews pierced Jesus.. .. And preterist are called anti-semetic. :rolleyes:Click to expand...
As I say often, the text is clear when you read it without presuppositions. You do have to study it however.
You should read some Preterist booksClick to expand...
I do not see the word earthly in the text, so it is not so clear. Stop reading into the text.Click to expand...
However He does clearly correct the false assumption of an earthly Kingdom.Click to expand...
[qutoe]Jesus told Pilate in John 18:36-37, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Pilate asked, "Art thou a king then?" Jesus replied, "Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness of the truth." It is quite obvious that Jesus was indicating that his kingdom was spiritual and not physical.[/quote]Not quite obvious, not in light of all the other clear passages. This has a better explanation.
Is Jesus a King? If so He is a King with no Kingdom.Click to expand...
In Luke 17:20-21, when asked when the kingdom would come, Jesus replied that, "the kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or Lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you "Click to expand...
Yes, anytime a Jew repents he enters into the Kingdom. Same for a Gentile.Click to expand...
. As long as man thinks only in physical terms he cannot grasp the nature of the eternal kingdom, and therefore will draw many wrong conclusions regarding the fulfillment of the prophecies regarding that kingdom.Click to expand...
If Christ's kingdom is a spiritual one, then one's first thought should be spiritual. Some make physical applications to everything until forced to look to the spiritual.Click to expand...
[qutoe]If one finds apparent conflict in his understanding, it is probably because he is failing to see the spiritual and needs to spend some more time studying. [/QUOTE]Completely off base. What this person needs to do is use the words of the text as the authority rather than his theological system. You are too tied to a system. YOu need to put your system aside and look at what the text actually says.
I don't have time to answer all these passages. There are many who have accurately explained these texts who will be able to give you insight. -
PL,
Responding to a statement from GH's post above. You apparently believe that Jesus is not yet king, but waiting to become king? (see my King Jesus? thread). One cannot be a king with no kingdom.
In Christ,
Tim -
Originally posted by Grasshopper:
If you have those verses I would like to study those further.
They are all over. I can't even begin to list them here. Start with the NC passage in Jer 31:31-40. There are a ton of these passages.Click to expand...
No it wouldn't. It was a true statement. The kingdom was "at hand" meaning it was ready to be taken.Click to expand...
But the condition of the kingdom was always repentance and the acceptance of the Messiah. We learn from the OT. I don't have the passages right at hand, but they are numerous.Click to expand...
He had to be pierced so that they could look on him whom they pierced Rev 1:7 tells us that this looking will take place when he comes in the clouds.Click to expand...
The ones who pierced Him in John are the same who saw Him in Revelation.
It was not fully fulfilled. As I said above, the piercing and the looking are two different issues. One took place in the first century; Rev 1:7 says that the other will take place at his coming.Click to expand...
As I say often, the text is clear when you read it without presuppositions. You do have to study it however.Click to expand...
They asked about "restoring the kingdom to Israel." Where do you think Israel's kingdom was the first time?Click to expand...
quote:
However He does clearly correct the false assumption of an earthly Kingdom.
No he doesn't. Read Acts 1, again.Click to expand...
[qutoe]Jesus told Pilate in John 18:36-37, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Pilate asked, "Art thou a king then?" Jesus replied, "Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness of the truth." It is quite obvious that Jesus was indicating that his kingdom was spiritual and not physical.Click to expand...
It's very clear.Was the Kingdom Christ offered of this world or not. You keep telling me it is. If it has a better explanation why don't you give it?
Precisely ... He is a king awaiting his kingdom. It will come when the Jews repent.Click to expand...
Which Jews will repent? Ethnic Jews, religious Jews, athiestic and agnostic Jews, Israeli Jews, NYC Jews? What if they are only part ethnic Jews?
"All of Israel will be saved". What is Israel? The nation, all Jews everywhere, only those in Israel, are gentiles living in Israel to be saved at that time as well? Or only religious Jews living in Israel? All religious Jews everywhere?
Actually, "wihtin you" should be "in your midst." Look at the context and see who he was talking to. HE was talking to rebellious Pharisees.Click to expand...
Secondly, Jesus said it comes without observation. That doesn't sound like your typical earthly Kingdom. Then He re-enforces the thought by saying don't look for it.
McClain addresses all these issues in his bookClick to expand...
Try actually reading ACts 3 this time.Click to expand...
Biblical thought is not only physical. But it does not ignore the plain meaning of the text. When the text is physical, we should not make it spiritual and that is your basic problem.Click to expand...
You are so "spiritual" that you are "ignoring or trying to explain away many very clear and unavoidable time statements."Click to expand...
You are too tied to a system. YOu need to put your system aside and look at what the text actually says.Click to expand...
I don't have time to answer all these passages. There are many who have accurately explained these texts who will be able to give you insight.Click to expand...
So the prophecies of the Kingdom being established during the Roman empire did not come to pass? (Dan 2:39-45)
Those prophecies weren't about the kingdom being established during the Roman empireClick to expand...
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