Four Profs Leaving SWBTS

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
IF professors would not sign fidelity to the BFM2000 then they have genuine theological issues. I personally don't think it goes far enough; but for some to say they could not sign but would teach by it is ludicrous.

It certainly is. That’s why they didn’t practice hypocrisy.

I am glad they had the integrity to leave and "do their own thing".

Apparently you’ve been misled or made a false assumption.

The four professors that left Southwestern to begin the B.H. Carroll Theological Institute signed the 2000 BF&M and were in good standing at Southwestern.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
The four professors that left Southwestern to begin the B.H. Carroll Theological Institute signed the 2000 BF&M and were in good standing at Southwestern.

Southwestern is better off without them. Paige will bring in some real scholars.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
The four professors that left Southwestern to begin the B.H. Carroll Theological Institute signed the 2000 BF&M and were in good standing at Southwestern.

Southwestern is better off without them. Paige will bring in some real scholars. </font>[/QUOTE]Hmm...

I see you are still excessively hostile to those who don't do things exactly the way you do them. It seems you have been desperately looking for a way to discredit them, and failing that, you made a desperate and uninformed swipe at their level of scholarship.

How very sad for you.

 

[Jimmy C]

Baptist Believer

After spending some time on this board, it is obvious to me that for the most part the denizens here are afraid of anything that is not under total control of the SBC. Instead of debating the merits - good or bad of the Carroll Institute. They simply want to paint with a broad brush, and condemn it and the people involved.

I am fortunate to know three of these professors, they have touched thousands of lives in their tenure at SWBTS, their scholarship is outstanding, they were even praised by Dr. Patterson.

I actually feel bad for people like DD, his debate tatics remind me of debates I have had w/ my kids - my mind is made up, dont confuse me with facts.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
The four professors that left Southwestern to begin the B.H. Carroll Theological Institute signed the 2000 BF&M and were in good standing at Southwestern.

Southwestern is better off without them. Paige will bring in some real scholars. </font>[/QUOTE]And who might those be?

 

[RandR]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
The four professors that left Southwestern to begin the B.H. Carroll Theological Institute signed the 2000 BF&M and were in good standing at Southwestern.

Southwestern is better off without them. Paige will bring in some real scholars. </font>[/QUOTE]I generally find that it is the people who use terms like "Pope Patterson" who make the most absurb and unsubstantiated claims in "discussion" such as this.

But that statement is drivel. Spivey and Corley specfically are both top notch.

Their leaving is not the end of the world by any means. (Nor was McBeth's, Dominy's, Briscoe's, Johnson's etc.) And they're by no means "heros" for making up their mind about the PP admin. before finishing a single semester under his leadership. (If, indeed, that is what precipitated their departure.) But to imply that they somehow aren't good or "real" scholars for leaving is just foolish.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by RandR:
And they're by no means "heros" for making up their mind about the PP admin. before finishing a single semester under his leadership. (If, indeed, that is what precipitated their departure.)

The plans for the BH Carroll Institute began in 1994 – long before Paige Patterson came to Fort Worth. The strategy and funding for this launch began in earnest about 3 years ago.

 

[Daniel David]

How scholarly can these guys be? They are quitting the largest seminary to join some refugee camp. When you mention Dilday, that is all you need to know about the school.

 

[Jimmy C]

DD

You ask about scholarship? A simple google search on Corley and Spivey revels the following, you may now go eat your crow in peace.

Bruce Corley - Former Dean of the School of Theology of SWBTS, has written over 25 books and essays including Biblical Hermeneutics in 2002, and commentaries on Romans and 2 Corinthians

From the SWBTS website on James Spivey

Ministry Experience
1986 - Present as Chaplain, US Army Reserve
1982 - 1986 as Pastor, Calvary Baptist Church, Brackley, England

Teaching Experience
1987 - Present at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
Associate Professor
1994 - Present at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary - Houston Campus
Associate Dean

Publications
1996. The Hermeneutics of the Medieval and Reformation Era, Article in Biblical Hermeneutics, A Comprehensive Introduction to Interprreting Scripture. Broadman & Holman (Nashville, TN). Author.
1994. Seperation No Myth: Religious Liberty's Biblical and Theological Bases, Article; Southwestern Journal of Theology. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Fort Worth, Texas). Author.
1994. The Millennium, Chapter in Has Our Theology Changed?. Broadman & Holmon (Nashville, TN). Author.
1990. Benajah Harvey Carroll, Chapter in Baptist Theologians. Broadman Press (Nashville, TN). Author.

Personal
Professional Memberships: Senior Army Reserve Commanders Association, Reserve Officers Association
Areas of Specialization: Early and Medieval Church History, Church-State, Chaplaincy
Spouse: Beverly Faye
Children: Jennifer
Other: Assistant Chief of Chaplains, US Army; Traveled extensively in Europe and Middle East.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
How scholarly can these guys be?

Quite scholarly - especially Corley and Spivey. (Moore is a musician and is very skilled and experienced in the musical arts.)

They are quitting the largest seminary...

Believe it or not, being the largest does not mean that it is the best.

...to join some refugee camp.

Who said it was a "refugee camp"? (Oh, wait, you mischaracterized it that way in a recent fit of ignorant condemnation.)

It is not a "refugee camp" but rather, a new theological institute.

When you mention Dilday, that is all you need to know about the school.

Yep. A man of character, courage and Christian conviction has joined the project and has not requested a paycheck.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
How scholarly can these guys be? They are quitting the largest seminary to join some refugee camp. When you mention Dilday, that is all you need to know about the school.

I have never seen a large school that didn't start small.

Largest does not always mean best.

From my experience the best theology professors have already left SWBTS. Dr, Lorin Cranford was the professor who most of the Ph. D. students took for Greek and NT studies. When a student finished Greek with him they were way ahead of any other programs anywhere else. I saw students come into class and be behind from the start who had one to three years of Greek elsewhere. In class we did ome work from the LXX and other literature outside of the NT. I took him for James in the Greek. He required us to idnetify the form and function of clauses and parse every word in James. Then we had to compare James with other passages and other literature. His students consistently won the Greek award. Dr. Cramford tests on the top ten percent of material. So if you only know 90 percent you will fail the test. His tests are one hour long and you will not even come close to finishing if you do not know the material well.
Sometime take a look at what he is teaching undergraduates at http://cranfordville.com/GWUclass.htm

Excellent teachers have no interest in politics. They want to teach, not play politician.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Daniel David:
How scholarly can these guys be? They are quitting the largest seminary to join some refugee camp. When you mention Dilday, that is all you need to know about the school.

I have never seen a large school that didn't start small.

Largest does not always mean best.

From my experience the best theology professors have already left SWBTS. Dr, Lorin Cranford was the professor who most of the Ph. D. students took for Greek and NT studies. When a student finished Greek with him they were way ahead of any other programs anywhere else. I saw students come into class and be behind from the start who had one to three years of Greek elsewhere. In class we did ome work from the LXX and other literature outside of the NT. I took him for James in the Greek. He required us to idnetify the form and function of clauses and parse every word in James. Then we had to compare James with other passages and other literature. His students consistently won the Greek award. Dr. Cramford tests on the top ten percent of material. So if you only know 90 percent you will fail the test. His tests are one hour long and you will not even come close to finishing if you do not know the material well.
Sometime take a look at what he is teaching undergraduates at http://cranfordville.com/GWUclass.htm

Excellent teachers have no interest in politics. They want to teach, not play politician. </font>[/QUOTE]He's at Gardner-Webb here in North Carolina now? Well... I can't say anything, one way or the other, about his teaching. However, Gardner-Webb is known as one of the finest liberal/moderate/mainstream training grounds in the state. In fact, the GWU website even refers to the Divinity School as being mainstream Baptist. However, none of this has anything to do with the current topic of discussion in this thread.

 

[Daniel David]

People, don't confuse acedemic skills with scholarliness. If they were real scholars, they wouldn't be apostates, errgg, moderates.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
People, don't confuse acedemic skills with scholarliness.

I see. As always, you know better than everyone else – even those of us who have known some of these people for nearly a decade.

By the way, you've misspelled "academic".

If they were real scholars, they wouldn't be apostates...

Ah, yes. The customary blanket condemnation based on your usual faulty reasoning and malice.

Don’t let facts, reality or the teachings of Jesus get in the way of your false assumptions.

And don’t worry about grieving the Spirit or falsely maligning people, because they probably have some faults and God is almost exclusively a God of judgment, not grace.

You seem to be a very unhappy person.

 

[Daniel David]

BB, I would prefer to deal with the professors and not reply to your personal attacks on me. I would not call you clueless for being a moderate, so please stop with the personal attacks. Please don't drag this down into your own personal vendetta against those who are in favor of Christians running the convention.

I can believe whatever I want, just as you can, in regards to the theological soundness of other people.

These profs are worthless to have around if they are so sympathetic to the moderates.

 

[Jimmy C]

DD,

Nobody has said that they are moderates. It would probably suprise you to find out that they are conservative in the views on scripture as you are. You should hear Dean Corleys chapel sermon on evolution and creation. Even if they are moderate politically, that does not take away from thier scriptural conservatism.

You assume that because they are leaving SWBTS that they are not conservative, you could not be more off base. They are leaving to start a work that they hope will have an impact on thousands of lives of men and women who might not be able to uproot their families and move to a seminary. Having over 100 teaching chruches across the country (and in other countries) will allow - at a greatly reduced cost, men and women to get a real seminary degree in a location close to their homes and home churches. They will be able to apply what they are learning in their home churches immediately.

I truly wish you would stop slandering these men, you know nothing about them. If you dont like the concept of the Carroll Institute, and you want to close your mind to learing anything about it, that is your choice. These men are gifted teachers and scholars, they are fine Christians - I am fortunate to have met them all, and know one of them quite well.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
BB, I would prefer to deal with the professors…

Then start “dealing” with them honestly instead of making false allegations!

…and not reply to your personal attacks on me.

It’s a public rebuke of the very public false statements you have made.

I would not call you clueless for being a moderate…

I don’t think anyone has called you “clueless”, just willingly ignorant and grievously wrong.

…so please stop with the personal attacks.

If you don’t speak malicious untruth, I won’t have to rebuke you again.

Please don't drag this down…

Sir, you are the one who has “dragged this down” with your false accusations!

…into your own personal vendetta…

We were talking about the new BH Carroll Institute until you started making false charges against members of my church family. I would be a person of little character and backbone unless I attempted to speak the truth about others in the face of false allegations.

Demeaning another person with false charges may be a sign of “true religion” where you come from, but last time I checked, bearing false witness against another person violates the clear teaching of scripture.

…against those who are in favor of Christians running the convention.

That’s classic. You criticize me for making “personal attacks” and yet you can’t even finish a paragraph without falsely alleging that those who do not fully support everything that goes on in the SBC are somehow not Christians or want non-Christians in charge.

Physician, heal thyself!

I can believe whatever I want, just as you can, in regards to the theological soundness of other people.

Yep. Everyone has the right to their opinion. But when you express a faulty opinion or make false statements and allegations about others, don’t be surprised if you get challenged.

If I were to make malicious and untrue statements about your family, I’m sure you would respond passionately and rebuke the untruth and the apparent motivation for the false attack. So, why do you pretend to be the innocent party when I challenge your baseless and false allegations against members of my church family?

These profs are worthless to have around if they are so sympathetic to the moderates.

I’m not surprised that they are “worthless” to you, but they are worth quite a bit to the Kingdom of God.

Remember, the Old Testament prophets and Jesus Himself had quite a bit of difficulty with the religious establishment.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by BibleboyII:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Daniel David:
How scholarly can these guys be? They are quitting the largest seminary to join some refugee camp. When you mention Dilday, that is all you need to know about the school.

I have never seen a large school that didn't start small.

Largest does not always mean best.

From my experience the best theology professors have already left SWBTS. Dr, Lorin Cranford was the professor who most of the Ph. D. students took for Greek and NT studies. When a student finished Greek with him they were way ahead of any other programs anywhere else. I saw students come into class and be behind from the start who had one to three years of Greek elsewhere. In class we did ome work from the LXX and other literature outside of the NT. I took him for James in the Greek. He required us to idnetify the form and function of clauses and parse every word in James. Then we had to compare James with other passages and other literature. His students consistently won the Greek award. Dr. Cramford tests on the top ten percent of material. So if you only know 90 percent you will fail the test. His tests are one hour long and you will not even come close to finishing if you do not know the material well.
Sometime take a look at what he is teaching undergraduates at http://cranfordville.com/GWUclass.htm

Excellent teachers have no interest in politics. They want to teach, not play politician. </font>[/QUOTE]He's at Gardner-Webb here in North Carolina now? Well... I can't say anything, one way or the other, about his teaching. However, Gardner-Webb is known as one of the finest liberal/moderate/mainstream training grounds in the state. In fact, the GWU website even refers to the Divinity School as being mainstream Baptist. However, none of this has anything to do with the current topic of discussion in this thread. </font>[/QUOTE]My point was that Daniel David mentioned, "How scholarly can these guys be? They are quitting the largest seminary to join some refugee camp. When you mention Dilday, that is all you need to know about the school." I responded to his accusation by mentioning that the scholars have already left SWBTS. Dr. Lorin Cranford is most likely the best NT studies professor the SBC has and he left SWBTS because of all the politics and lack of scholarship presently. If you ever take him for NT studies you will be one of the best prepared of anyone. He is a very fine pastor and scholar.