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Featured Free will and the gospel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Tim71, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. Tim71

    Tim71 Member
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    When a sinner is listening to a precise clear gospel message and comes to the realization of his lost state and that he can offer nothing to God. The moment that the word of God is working in the sinners heart showing the sinner of his total depravity. In this moment that the word of God is working on him convicting him of his lost condition. The sinner responds in his heart that everything that was stated in this precise presentation of the gospel message is 100% true. He realizes he can do nothing to save himself, other than fully trust what Jesus did for him on the cross. At this moment is he saved?
    And if you say he is saved Do you believe the sinner can say my free will gave me a choice to accept or reject the gospel?

    Here is were my personal dilemma is. I personally believe in irresistible grace. I believe once the sinner fully placed his trust in what Jesus Christ done he is saved and he can no longer say he had a choice in the matter. I believe once the light of the gospel has shown your total and utter helplessness. You are left having no other choice to make. It leaves you with only one option and only one option. That is to simply believe Jesus and the glorious gospel message.

    I read this statement of faith (below) from a church that claims to believe in the doctrines of grace. Do you believe this statement conflicts with the doctrines of grace?

    III. AND THAT NOTHING PREVENTS THE SALVATION OF THE GREATEST SINNER ON EARTH, BUT HIS OWN INHERENT DEPRAVITY AND VOLUNTARY REJECTION OF THE GOSPEL."

    A. John 5:39-40 - These Pharisees were searching the scriptures, but they refused to come to Christ.

    1. Jesus said that lost sinners willingly stay away from him; they do it because they want to.

    2. Man’s own will is depraved and contrary to God’s will, therefore, instead of coming to Him, they go away.

    3. John 3:19"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

    B. People are lost because they want to be lost.

    1. Only when sinners want to be saved more than anything else will they come to Jesus that they might have life.

    2. John 3:18-19"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

    C. Other scriptures that teach this to be true are:
    Matt. 23:37 - Christ desired Jerusalem to come to Him, but they refused (and was destroyed).

    1. Romans 9:31-33 - Israel didn’t receive righteousness because they sought it by the keeping of the law, not by faith in the righteousness of Christ.

    2. Proverbs 1:24 - This verse is a symbolic gesture. Wisdom (God) called to the simple ones (sinners) to turn from wickedness, but they wouldn’t hear.

    3. Acts 13:46 - Paul and Barnabas turning from the unbelieving Jews to the Gentiles.
     
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Consider a simple Venn diagram.

    In the circle to the left are all unbelievers. They have the capacity to choose only within the parameters of what is framed by this world. They are incapable of choosing that which is Godly. These are the unbelievers and the dead without Christ.

    The circle on the right is totally that which is Godly, there is no capacity to choose what is unGodly, for all of that estate are conformed to God. These are those no longer in this world but have passed into the presence of God.

    Then the intersection of the two circles. In that small area, there reside the believers, not yet called into God’s presence. They, because they posses BOTH the nature of the fallen AND the New nature of God, are the ONLY that truly posses freedom of will.

    Only those who are believers yet alive in this world have true freedom of the will for they may either submit to the will of the world and reap of the consequences, or they may submit to the will of God and reap the consequences.

    In short, outside of Christ in the believer, there is no freedom of the will while in this life. The dead have no ability nor given any opportunity to change, but must abide in the will of their estate
     
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    As fallen individuals, we are corrupted and predisposed to sinful behavior, but if part of the 3 soils with limited spiritual ability, we could hear and respond appropriately to the gospel.

    People are lost because they start as lost (condemned already) and did not hear and learn from the Father.

    Lets back up a little. The need for the doctrine of "irresistible grace (IR) is built on the doctrine of "total spiritual inability." Because you quoted Romans 9:31-33, you should know some people (the three soils) have limited spiritual ability so they can seek God (by works or faith or some combination of both). You also probably are familiar with Romans 9:16 which teaches salvation does not depend upon the man that wills or works to be saved. However the idea people must have spiritual ability to will to be saved and some level of commitment to strive by works to be saved, still does not cause you to reject total spiritual inability of all the lost.

    2. Proverbs 1:24 - This verse is a symbolic gesture. Wisdom (God) called to the simple ones (sinners) to turn from wickedness, but they wouldn’t hear.

    3. Acts 13:46 - Paul and Barnabas turning from the unbelieving Jews to the Gentiles.[/QUOTE]
     
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The parable does not show “limited spiritual ability” but the incompatibility of anything other than the pre-prepared destined for Corp raising soil.

    That some would desire for stones and shallow soil to bring seeds to harvest, does not hold when only one soil is actually capable.

    There are no “almost made it” and “if I only had more faith” people to find amongst the redeemed.

    Who prepares the soil?

    Who established what is necessary for the soil to grow a crop?

    Who established the walkways of stone and determined the soil depth?

    Only one.

    The soil did nothing.
     
    #4 agedman, Nov 1, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
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  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    To clarify one point.

    Some would think the shallow earth had ability in itself.

    Not true,

    Any one attending an upper elementary science class has no doubt seen the little zip lock bags with seeds growing.

    Seeds generate life from within when exposed to sunlight and moisture.

    The lord said, “I am the light of the world.”

    And again said! “Whoever drinks of the water I give them will never thirst.

    The seed sprouts in the incapable soil just as it does in the ziplock bag. On its own authority.

    The shallow is and does remain incapable of sustaining life.
     
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  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Still waiting for Tim71 to respond.

    Did the second soil do nothing or receive the gospel with joy? Pay no attention to the tis not so crowd, the text speaks with truth and clarity.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sinners are bound and constrained by their sin natures, as can only do what that nature allows for!
     
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  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Van the account is found (must have been important) in Luke 8, Mark 4, and Matthew 13.

    There certainly are many who like to hear the good news. They can respond to good news. They can respond to emotionalism, cry over spilled milk, or even loosing Nemo. They may pray that "sinner's prayer" and have great joy that they are safe. They may attend all manner of Bible training, even be preachers. But, such have no foundation of the Holy Spirit in the core. They have NO ability to self generate the Holy Spirit - try as they may by effort and knowledge.

    None of the "joy" translates into ability.

    They may "believe for a while," but such belief is not from a changed core resulting in fruit as the result of the life changing condition; because, for such, it is not in that person's ability. Such have no foundation for belief other than mental assent.

    The whole parable resides on which soil has ability, from where does that ability come, and to what result does that ability manifest.

    Rocks and shallow soil do not have the ability.

    That one does not comprehend this simple lesson and attempts to remake the parable into that which is unsupportable is truly beyond sad.
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did you see any verse cited to support the idea Matthew 13 does not mean what it says? Neither did I.

    Did anyone say the lost has the ability to "self generate" the Holy Spirit? No. So again the ploy is rail against self generated fictions.

    And remember this, when the deniers say the effort to seek God and trust in Christ was not real, take a look at Matthew 23:13 where the lost were entering the kingdom of Heaven. So their limited spiritual ability was sufficient.

    Accept what scripture says, and reject the claims it means the opposite of what it says. Was the rich young ruler seeking God? Of course. Were those in Romans 9:31-33 seeking God. Of course.
     
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I would agree as it pertains to the ones who are not believers.

    Believers actually have both the old and the new nature, and are (in this living only ) truly free to choose between what is offered from both.

    That the believer may choose to sin, and suffer the rebuke of the sin, even to the point of addiction, does not mean that they "can only do what that nature allows."

    But, you and I would most surely agree that the lost sinner can only do what is natural and are bound and constrained to that nature.

    :)
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Oh,
    So you want to claim that the rocky soil and the shallow soil in some manner have the great ability to sustain seed and be part of the harvest.

    There is nothing in the parable to even suggest that the rocky or shallow earth put forth any "effort to seek God and trust Christ." That is TOTALLY what you are reading into the parable. And, such is not even logical conclusion by the simplest of comprehension.

    Perhaps you can prove by use of the parable what grand "ability" is in each soil?

    Perhaps you can prove by use of the parable what grand preparation the soil did to itself to seek God, and to reach out and grab the seed.

    You can't, because it doesn't exist, but I would consider that your obstinance is not granting you to change your thinking.
     
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, as the lost are free to do as they would will, but that will is limited and constrained by being a sinful nature!
     
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  13. Tim71

    Tim71 Member
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    I believe the soils represent mankind. The second soil you mention, is not a believer of the gospel message. If he truly believed the gospel message he would produce fruit.
     
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  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    That just doesn't fit with Van's scheme of self ability.

    Many threads have Van attempting to defend a view that in some manner all humankind can get God's attention and ask for salvation. Van is big on disparaging the inability of humans (trying to discredit the doctrines of Grace), by attempting to prove that the human freedom of choice is extended to include any person having the ability to believe.

    Of course, this is typical of the Baptist teaching that goes along with prevenient or preceding grace.

    This teaching is a most problematic teaching and a dangerous teaching, because it has no Scripture support. The idea that in some manner God lifts a person into such a state of grace as to allow that person to choose or reject salvation is nowhere found in Scriptures. It is TOTALLY a human construct. It is taught and feed to the unsuspecting as if it were the gospel, but it is a lie and needs to be declared as such.

    Would you believe that some of even those who are doctrine of Grace thinkers actually hold this teaching, too. It is alarming to them when they find out that is has no basis in Scripture, but merely an assumption by tradition.
     
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    But if total spiritual inability were true, he would not have received the gospel with joy. The premise was that total spiritual inability of all lost people all the time, unless altered by irresistible grace, is false and unbiblical.

    Lots of verses show this same truth, that fallen people sometimes seek God and put their trust in Christ. Sidestepping truth is not on God's path of righteousness.

    BTW, pay absolutely no heed to Agedman's characterization of my views, his characterizations are false and misleading. For example, God is all-knowing, and therefore always knows if we are seeking Him or putting our faith in Christ. Therefore his claim we seek to get "God's attention" is a false statement.
     
    #15 Van, Nov 2, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  16. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Yes sir. The scriptures give us an account of this actually happening.......

    Acts 24:
    24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

    Felix heard the Gospel, was "convicted" by the Holy Ghost(John 16:8) in so much that he "trembled", but he put it off.
     
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  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    As if the people did not lay palm branches and were most joyful when Jesus rode the donkey, yet cry for His crucifixion a few days later.

    Joy is not an indication of Spiritual ability, and to try to consider that emotion as such is most frail.

    There is NO authority or spiritual ability for any person outside the direct work of the Holy Spirit illuminating that one to seek Christ.

    The rocky and shallow soil have no spiritual ability, nothing in them to sustain life.

    The Holy Spirit is that which gives and sustains the life. Because the shallow and rocky had no ability to sustain life, there was no spiritual ability, no work of the Holy Spirit.

    What characterization of you has agedman ever made that was false or misleading?

    It is you who make unsubstantiated characterization and misleading statements.

    Just as this thread in dealing correctly with the soils (humankind) in this parable.

    You got it wrong, but can’t admit it.
     
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Agedman argues received the gospel with joy does not mean received the gospel with joy. Pay no attention to those who say the Bible does not mean what it says if it conflicts with their man-made doctrine.

    Next receiving the gospel with joy he claims does not mean they had some spiritual ability. So his argument is folks cannot receive the gospel because they have no ability, but when they do receive it, that does not mean they have some ability. LOL

    Next he makes yet another bogus assertion but provides no scripture in support. Folks, note I support the biblical truth of limited spiritual ability by passage after passage, including Romans 9:16 (people will to be saved) and Romans 9:31-33 (people seek God by faith and or works.)

    Next, believe it or not, he equates spiritual ability with the ability to sustain life! Only God sustains life. So yet another bogus assertion.

    Did I say "great ability" (no) or "limited spiritual ability" (yes). Did I say the fallen have the ability to "sustain seed be part of the harvest?" No. Falsehood after falsehood is posted allowed. Who actually "sustains" our salvation? God and God alone. Who has sealed us with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to be part of the rapture harvest? God and God alone. Pay absolutely no attention to this guy who spews falsehood like a fire-hose.
     
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Not what was posted, or even argued.


    Agreed!

    This is just as confused as a termite in a yo-yo.

    Really, YOU now support limited spiritual ability? Didn't you state that the heathen have the ability to seek God out of their own desire?

    What spiritual ability resides outside of the direct life-giving work of the Holy Spirit?

    My such a grand claim of superior view you have made.

    Again, the simple comprehension skills hold that the rocky and shallow soil had NO ability, not even limited ability.

    Van does not seem to understand the concept of the farmer's seed.

    The seed has the ability within itself to nourish itself for a short time, as any elementary science experiment using a zip-lock bag, a spoon of water, and a seed does show.

    But, the rocky and the shallow have no ability to sustain life.

    THAT is the point. There is NO spiritual ability.

    What Van fails to understand is that there is the power of the Word of God, but such power is useless without the work of the Holy Spirit (the spiritual ability).

    Because Van does not understand this basic truth, he is compelled to rail against those who do understand. Doing so by using outlandish claims about others such as his quoted post.[/QUOTE]
     
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  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    As I said, Agedman makes up false views, attributes them to me, but provides no quotes, and denies he misrepresents me.
    How can anyone discuss biblical doctrine, with this endless infusion of falsehood?

    Returning to the actual topic, fallen people can will to be saved, Romans 9:16. Those advocating total spiritual inability falsely claim fallen people never seek God. Thus their view is once again shown by scripture to be bogus.

    Fallen people seek God via faith or works or both, Romans 9:31-33. Those advocating total spiritual inability falsely claim fallen people never seek God . Thus their view is once again shown by scripture to be bogus.

    Sometimes, ;those advocating total spiritual inability claim the examples found in scripture were not genuine or real, but Matthew 23:13 shows that claim too is bogus, because those fallen people were "entering the kingdom."
     
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