Free will makes God appear impotent.

Eternal security of the saints is a doctrine of grace. Free will is a doctrine of works. Salvation is either all of grace or all of works. It is like oil and water, it won't mix. It cannot be half of one and half of the other. It is grace from start to finish or works from start to finish. Phil 1:6 If God has begun a good work in you he will finish it. If you by our free will begun a good work in yourself then you will have to finish it by holding on or holding out.

 

False, when you trust Jesus you know you are going to be born again and receive the Holy Spirit. You now have God's "seed" living in you forever and cannot fall away in total unbelief.

It is like getting circumcised, once you do that it cannot be undone.

 

You did complain. It was in jest, but you complained. I said, Bosley, Bosley, Bosley, what do you want? And you responded;

Now, that's complaining. I know you were joking around, and my response to you was joking around as well, but you complained.

It MIGHT, it MIGHT NOT. I have no idea what he was talking about. What was that, two sentences? I have no idea what the context of that conversation was. It hardly proves your point.

John 6:45 explains verse 44 where Jesus said no man can come to him unless the Father draws him, then Jesus says, As it is written in the prophets, they shall all be taught of God. Every man that comes to Jesus must be taught by the Father, they must hear his words and learn from him.

OK, how is that done? Were you walking down the street and God appeared to you like he appeared to Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus? That is not how I learned about Jesus. I learned about Jesus when my parents took me to church and they taught me from the Bible about Jesus.

And I would bet that is exactly how you learned about Jesus too. That is how the Father teaches men, through the scriptures he has provided to mankind. If God had not given his word to faithful men who recorded them for us, neither you nor I would know a solitary thing about the true God or salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

You can claim some mystical revelation all you want, that is not how it happens.

Romans 10 has EVERYTHING to do with this, as it explains HOW men believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. Does it teach that men are regenerated to believe? NO, it teaches that men believe when they hear the word of God preached to them. Faith comes by HEARING the word of God.

The word of God IS supernatural, it was supernaturally provided, and it pierces to the dividing asunder of spirit and soul, but man must do the hearing for that to take place.

If you refuse to listen to God's word and be taught by it, you cannot possibly be saved. But if you are saved, it was because God provided you the knowledge to be saved.

2 Timothy 3:15 says exactly what John 6:45 says. It is the scriptures that makes a man WISE UNTO SALVATION THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS. It is the word of God that teaches you Jesus is the son of God who died for your sins and rose from the dead, and that if you place your faith in him you will be saved. This knowledge enables you to place your faith in Jesus if you are willing to do so.

If you are not willing to listen to God's word and learn from it, you will not trust Jesus and be saved.

The difference is not two kinds of calls, but two kinds of men.

I perfectly agree that God the Father draws men. When I heard the gospel that Jesus loved me and died for me, I was absolutely drawn to Jesus.

Nowhere do the scriptures teach you have to be regenerated to believe. That is man-made doctrine you cannot possibly show. All those verses about being "called" do not prove that, God calls all men, but many men refuse to come. I showed you that scripture in Matthew 22.

It is you that does not see that you are question begging. You are ASSUMING your view is true, without one word of scripture to support it. You are reading Calvinism INTO the text when it is not there.

That is not true. With all those verses the post was too long. So I went back and deleted them. They were wonderful verses that all say we are called, but they do not teach this "effectual" call you speak of. Men resist the call all the time. There are not two kinds of call, there are two kinds of men.

The call was to ALL men.

Well, God KNOWS who will believe through his foreknowledge, and yes he has predetermined these believers will be conformed to his image. This does not prove irresistible grace whatsoever.

I had to cut this post in two, because again it is too long.

 

Part 2

First of all, making longer and longer posts does not make you right. Ridiculous.

Here we go again. Are you claiming you received a personal invitation from God himself? Tell us all about your experience Joseph Smith!

Show me where the Bible says any of what you just said.

No, one call.

True, no man can come unless he is called and drawn, but all men are called and drawn.

It is speaking of the word of God. It has "appeared" to you. Go look on your bookshelf.

Well, you didn't learn.

Why would I believe every person I witness to will be saved? Jesus did miracles and still many men refused to listen to him and be saved.

Was Jesus lying when he said he would have gathered Jerusalem under his wings as a mother hen gathers her chicks?

See, your doctrine makes God out to be insincere and a liar. He calls men, but he really doesn't mean it.

If you cannot see your doctrine implies God is a liar then you are in complete denial.

 

Very biblical

Absolutely unbiblical.

Every single person who is drawn of the Father is given to Jesus. Every single one. No one drops out.

But every single person in the world, past, present and future are not drawn or else every single person is saved and glory-bound.

Every single person in the group --namely the elect --will be drawn by the Father,given to Jesus by Him, and come to Jesus. Anyone outside of this gathering is not a member of the all in John 6:37,39,40 etc.

 

That is false and you cannot show a single scripture to support this.

False, many people are drawn and called but refuse to come.

Show where the scriptures say every single person who is drawn shall come to Jesus, you won't be able to do it.

Show it.

 

Jn 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

OK, I am not sure who you are posting this scripture for, but it does not say everyone who is drawn comes to Jesus as Rippon insists.

There is no scripture that says everyone who is drawn comes to Jesus. You cannot possibly show it, it doesn't exist.

 

Then why aren't all men saved?

 

I have never hinted at much less insisted that John 12:32 says everyone in the world will be drawn to Jesus.

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Winman, you deny plain Scripture day in and day out. Read John 6 and yield to its authority.

 

You need to stop taking other peoples word for what a scripture means, because you just parroted Philippians 1:6 so far out of context it's not even funny.

It has nothing to do with eternal security, or perseverance.

Paul was talking about MONEY when he wrote that.


Good grief.

 

Well, this verse does say if Jesus is raised up he will draw all men unto him, but it does not say all men who are drawn will come.

I do not see the words "draw" or "drawn" in this verse, do you?

Again, I do not see the words "draw" or "drawn" in this verse.

OK, this verse says no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but it does not say that every man that God draws shall come to Jesus.

I am not denying scripture at all. None of these verses say all men who are drawn shall come. It is not there. You are reading that into scripture.

You have not only been blinded by false doctrine, you have been conditioned to see things that aren't there by Calvinism. There is not a single verse in all the word of God that says every man who is drawn by God shall come to Jesus.

You need to open your eyes and read what the scriptures are ACTUALLY saying. You have been brainwashed.

 

This stumps you? Really?

Have you considered that not everyone who is drawn by the Father comes to Jesus?

 

Because some choose the darkness rather than the light.
MB

 

Being confident of this very thing
The reason of his thanksgiving, and of his making request with joy continually on the behalf of this church, was the confidence and full persuasion he had of this same thing, of which he could be as much assured as of any thing in the world:

that he which hath begun a good work in you, will perform [it] until
the day of Jesus Christ:
by this good work is not meant the preaching of the Gospel among them, nor a Gospel church state set up in the midst of them: for though the preaching of the Gospel was a good work, and issued well in the conversion of many, in their edification and comfort, and which was still continued; and though a Gospel church state was erected among them, and was now flourishing, yet the apostle could not assure himself of the continuance of either of them, especially until the day of Christ; and both have been removed from thence many hundreds of years ago: nor is their liberal communication to the support of the Gospel intended; for though this was a good work, yet this was not wrought by God, but by themselves, and was not wrought in them, but done by them; nor their good lives and conversations. The Syriac version indeed renders it "good works", but these cannot be designed, for the same reasons as before; for though they are good things, and answer many valuable ends and purposes, yet they are external works done by men, and not internal ones wrought in them by God; wherefore by it is undoubtedly meant the work of grace upon their hearts, sometimes called the work of faith, because that is a principal part of it: this is God's work, and not man's, as may be concluded from the nature of the work itself, which is the transforming of a man by the reviewing of him, a regeneration, a resurrection, and a creation, and therefore requires almighty power; and from the condition man is in by nature, he is dead in sin, and has no power to act spiritually, and much less what is equal to such a work as this; he has no will, desire, and inclination to it, but all the reverse; and if he had, he could no more effect it, than the dry bones in Ezekiel's vision could cause themselves to live. This is the work of God. Sometimes it is ascribed to the Father, who regenerates, calls by his grace, reveals his Son, and draws souls unto him; and sometimes to the Son, who quickens whom he will, whose Spirit is given, whose image is stamped, and out of whose fulness grace is received; but more commonly it is attributed to the Spirit, who is a spirit of regeneration, sanctification, and faith: and this is a "good work", as it must needs be, since it is God's work; he is the efficient cause of it; his good will and pleasure, his grace and mercy are the moving cause of it, and not men's works; and his good word is the means of it. The matter of it is good; it is an illumination of the understanding, a subduing of the will, a taking away of the stony heart, and a giving of an heart of flesh, an infusion of spiritual life, a formation of Christ in the soul, and an implantation of all grace there: it is good in its effects; it makes a man a good man, and fits and qualifies him to perform good works, which without it he cannot do; it makes a man a proper habitation for God, and gives him meetness for the heavenly inheritance. And this is an internal work, a work begun "in" the saints; nothing external is this work; not an outward reformation, which, when right, is the fruit of this good work; nor external humiliation for sin; nor a cessation from the grosser acts of sin; nor a conformity and submission to Gospel ordinances; all which may be where this work is not; but it is something within a man; as appears from the names by which it goes; such as spirit, so called, because it is of a spiritual nature, wrought by the Spirit of God, and has its seat in the spirit of man; it is called the inward man, which is renewed day by day; a seed that remains in him, and a root which is out of sight, and oil in the vessel, the heart, as distinct from the lamp of an outward profession: as also from the several things, which, together, make up the subject of it; it is the understanding which is enlightened; the will which is subdued; the heart and inward parts in which the laws of God are written; the mind and conscience, which are sprinkled with the blood of Christ, and cleansed; and the affections, which are set on divine objects. This is a begun work, and but a begun one. It may be said to be begun as soon as light is let into the soul by the Spirit of God; when it sees its lost state, and need of a Saviour, for as the first thing in the old creation was light, so in the new; when the fear of God is put into the heart, which is the beginning of wisdom; when love appears in the soul to God, to Christ, to his people, word, and ordinances; and when there are the seeing, venturing, and relying acts of faith on Christ, though there is a great deal of darkness, trembling, and unbelief; and when it is got thus far, and even much further, it is but a begun work; it is not yet finished and perfect: this appears from the several parts of this work, which are imperfect, as faith, hope, love, knowledge from the indwelling of sin, and corruption in the best of saints; from their various continual wants and necessities; from their disclaiming perfection in this life, and their desires after it. But the apostle was confident, and so may every good man be confident, both for himself and others, that God who has, and wherever he has begun the good work of grace, will "perform", finish it, or bring it to an end, as the word here used signifies: and this the saints may assure themselves of, from many considerations; as from the nature of the work itself, which is called living water, because it always continues, a well of it, because of its abundance, and is said to spring up to eternal life; because it is inseparably connected with it, where there is grace, there will be glory; grace is the beginning of glory, and glory the perfection of grace; this work of grace is an incorruptible seed, and which remains in the saints, and can never be lost; it is a principle of life, the root of which is hid in Christ, and that itself is maintained by him, and can never be destroyed by men or devils: and also from the concern God has in it, who is unchangeable in his nature, purposes, promises, gifts, and calling; who is a rock, and his work is perfect sooner or later; who is faithful, and will never forsake the work of his hands, and has power to accomplish it; and who has promised his people, that they shall grow stronger and stronger, that they shall not depart from him, and he will never leave them. Moreover, this may be concluded from the indwelling of the Spirit, as a spirit of sanctification, as the earnest and seal of the inheritance, and that for ever; and from the intercession and fulness of grace in Christ, and the saints' union to him, and standing in him; as well as front the impotency of any to hinder the performance of this work, as sin, Satan, or the world: to which may be added the glory of all the three Persons herein concerned; for if this work is not finished, the glory of God the Father in election, in the covenant of grace, in the contrivance of salvation, in the mission of his Son, the glory of Christ in redemption, and of the Spirit in sanctification, would be entirely lost: wherefore it may be depended on, this work will be performed wherever it is begun, and that "until the day of Jesus Christ"; meaning either the day of death, when Christ takes the souls of believers to himself, and they shall be for ever with him, when this work of grace upon the soul will be finished; for God, who is the guide of his people, will be their God and guide even unto death: or else the last day, the day of judgment, the resurrection day, when Christ shall appear and raise the dead, and free the bodies of the saints from all their bondage, corruption, vileness, and weakness, which will be putting the last and finishing hand to this good work; nor will even the bodies of the saints be quitted by the Spirit of God till this is done.



< Sir if you have time to learn something, this is what John Gill said in his commentary about this scripture.

 

Very good answer. :thumbsup:


Now, why do they choose darkness over Light?

 

Why then don't they come when drawn?

 

How would I know? You would have to ask them.

 

Philippians 1:3-6
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:



What was the good work which God had begun in them, and would carry to completion? The MONEY


Even go read Gill's comments on verse 5, where he starts out supporting the context, that being the MONEY they gave.

Then, after only a couple of sentences in dealing with verse 5, Gill made an unwarranted shift to Perseverance of the Saints


The Greek word is Koinonian - partnership, sharing, fellowship, etc

What's up with that? Why did he spend two minutes on the actual context, then take a doctrinal nose dive off the deep end?


And better yet, why have YOU swallowed his nonsense - hook, line and sinker ??

Why do you not investigate a little before regurgitating the doctrinal slant of somebody who was trying with all his might to press his bias onto scripture?


Romans 15:26 - For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution (Koinonian) for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. [MONEY]

2Corinthians 8:4 - Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; how that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints. [MONEY]

2Corinthians 9:1-13 - For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you: for I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many. Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready........For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men


Paul commended the Macedonian church numerous times for the financial "partnering", and exhorted the Corinthians to do the same.

So you'll have to excuse me, but I have learned. And Gill twisted the meaning of 1:6 so far out of context that he should have been ashamed of himself - because he did it on purpose. That is evidenced by his beginning comments on verse 5

 

Quit deflecting...why do people fail to come...you know the answer but don't want to answer it...