Free will makes God appear impotent.

Oh no? He required the Israelites to keep the Law, and if they didn't, they were slayed. He tells us to be holy as He is holy. Are you capable of keeping the Law and being as holy as the Triune God is holy?

 

You know that passage has nothing to do with individual salvation or random selection, right?

 

You say "if" they didn't. That implies choice.

Are you saying with the Spirit dwelling within He is unable to keep us from being Holy as He is Holy?

And we are the ones that stomp on God's sovereignty and power...:BangHead:

 

Sinners freely choose to sin, when left to themselves. They act according to their nature. We were the same way, when we lived lascivious lifestyles.

We have the flesh to contend with. We sin, and that keeps us from being as holy as He is. The soul is holy, being converted, but the flesh is still sinful and will remain that way until glorification takes place.

"Without Me, ye can do nothing". John 15:5c

"I can do all things through Christ Jesus, which strengthens me". Phipp. 4:13

 

God requires from us something that we cannot do in and by ourselves though!
He enables those of us to get saved by the Cross of Christ to be able to respond with faith towards Him once they hear the good news!

 

There is no choice here whatsoever. According to your doctrine they can do nothing but sin, there is no choice.

So the Spirit within will lose out to the flesh? Who's sovereign...or did God design us with the ability to CHOOSE?

neither here nor there pertaining to the issue.

 

Seeking Him...yes. Ability to have faith...no.

 

For faith is the Gift of God towards those of us saved by the Cross, correct?

 

On your doctrine maybe.

 

Men are ABLE to keep the law. No man keeps the law, but that is another issue altogether.

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The Bible says that John the Baptist's parents were "both" righteous, and that they walked in "all" the commandments and ordinances of the Lord "blameless".

That sounds pretty good to me, and they didn't even have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Job was a good man who obeyed God at all times.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job didn't have the Holy Spirit either, yet God said he was perfect and upright, he feared God, and he hated evil.

That kinda kicks the doctrine of Total Inability right in the seat of the pants.

Noah was another man who lived a holy life.

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Enoch was a good man who walked with God.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Why do you teach that men are unable to obey God's commandments?? That is not what the Bible teaches.

 

The contex of every time that the OT person was saod to be perfect is that it comapres his keeping of the law and honoring God to those others around him, NOT that they perfectly kept ther Law, for that makes paul a liar!

 

Well, of course you are enabled to believe after you hear the gospel, you can choose to believe it is the truth or not.

It is no different from hearing any promise, that promise enables you to believe that promise if you choose to do so.

There is no magic involved in believing a promise, anyone can do this at any time. I could promise to send you a hundred dollars if you send me your address in a PM, then you could choose to believe or trust me and send me your address. No supernatural enabling required.

Of course, that was just an analogy, I AM NOT promising to send you or anybody else a hundred dollars.

But if I did, you wouldn't need supernatural assistance to believe me, you can believe me just as you are. The same is true of the gospel.

 

So you are able to keep the Law of God in the same manner jesus was able to do it?

 

I never said that any man keeps the law 100% of the time. In fact, I said men do not keep the law. Go back and see.

That does not mean man is not able to keep the law.

Do you have to lie, or could you tell the truth? Yes or no?

Do you have to steal, or could you be honest and return the lost wallet you found?

Do you have to be unfaithful to your wife? Or can you choose to be faithful to her?

Yes or no? Answer these questions honestly if you dare.

 

Was I talking about keeping the law there?? Maybe you should read that real careful, I was speaking about believing a promise there.

If someone promises you something, you have the choice to believe them or not. You do not need supernatural assistance to make this choice.

A stranger could ask to borrow your car and promise to bring it back in ten minutes. You could make the decision to trust him and allow him to take your car. You do not need to be supernaturally enabled to trust this stranger, you were born with the ability to trust others.

The gospel is no different, you do not need supernatural enabling to believe. No where does the scripture teach this.

Show where the scriptures say you need some sort of supernatural enabling to have the ability to believe the gospel.

Come on, you claim your doctrine is true, PROVE IT.

 

Pharaoh is an excellent example of God's election process fulfilled in real time....For God's Purpose, nothing to do with salvation here. God cannot learn anything, He knows the paths people will choose in real time, He knows those who will respond to His promptings, those who will harden their own hearts. It was only after Pharaoh flipped back and forth on obeying God's commands, hardening his own heart towards God, when God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Of course God has ALL the information before the foundation of the world. With that kind of power, God can rightly declare For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power.


Remember, Israel is God's Elect, yet not all of Israel is saved.

 

Sinners freely choose to sin. It's as plain as the nose on your face, Brother WD. Ask a drunkard if he wants to go to church or a bar and see which he/she chooses. As the heroin addict if they want a syringe full or a church service and see what they tell you. Sin is ingrained within our flesh. Unless God overrides their desires, their desire to come to Him is null and void.

That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of Spirit is spirit. The flesh still has it's desires because the stain of sin, the penalty of sin, hasn't been eradicated. The inward man has been cleansed from all unrighteousness and is as holy as God as is holy, But the flesh and soul still "duke it out". But eventually, the inward will bring the flesh back under subjection.

It does so absolutely pertain to the issue at hand. We can't breath, eat, sleep, walk, or anything without Him. We can't even come to Him w/o first being drawn. We can keep the Law, but only the inward can, and does, because "we are dead and our lives are hid with Christ in God".

 

This is a foolish argument. No one is born a drunkard. A man begins to drink when he is not addicted to alcohol and not a slave. If the man continues to drink he becomes addicted and a slave of alcohol.

The same with heroin or any other drug, no man is born with a needle in his hands, but men freely choose to take drugs. If the man continues to take drugs then he becomes addicted and a slave.

The scriptures do not teach that we sin because we are born slaves of sin, the scriptures teach that the man who chooses to sin become a slave of sin.

Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Jesus is personifying sin here. When we choose to sin, we sell ourselves to sin (Rom 7:14). Now sin is our master and we belong to sin. And sin only pays one wage, and that is death.

Scripture does not teach that we are born servants of sin, we become servants of sin when we willingly choose to sin and sell ourselves to sin.

Nevertheless, a servant to sin can obey the gospel, this is exactly what Paul tells us in Romans 6:17-18;

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Paul thanks God that these Romans who were servants of sin were able to obey and believe the gospel, and the moment they chose to believe they were set free from sin (again, sin being personified) and made servants to righteousness (righteousness being personified).

Don't drink the poison Kool-Aid folks. :thumbsup:

 

We sin because we are born sinners, Wes. How hard is it to get that through to you?? An apple tree is an apple tree before the first apple ever buds. The same applies to an orange, pear, banana, fig, grapefruit, &c. By your doctrine, an apple tree doesn't become an apple tree until it first produces apples. That's foreign to the bible...but sooooo much of your teachings are in that fashion, it seems.

Christ can sin, sinners can not sin, people make it to heaven w/o repentance...you're consistent...consistent in your errors....:thumbsup:


I don't want any of your kool-aid....

 

False, both Jesus and Paul taught that we become slaves of sin when we willingly choose to sin. You teach the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture says.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul asks, Know ye not that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, you are servants to whom you obey, whether (option) of sin (personified) unto death, or (option) of obedience (personified) unto righteousness?

Apparently in your case Willis, the answer is NO. You do not know what Paul is teaching here, and instead teach the false doctrines of men.

No man is born with a bottle of Jack Daniels in his hand, addicted to alcohol. It is when men FREELY choose to drink and continue to do so that they become addicted and a slave of sin, just as Jesus and Paul taught.

You are drinking that stuff real good Willis.