Same way a supposedly "elect" man does. Or maybe not, eh? Maybe the "elect" man is like the Pharisee who comes to the altar and says, "I'm glad I am not as this lost man who has to humble himself before you and pray for "election." Is that your point?
With God -- "all things are possible!" :laugh:
Absolutely! Look at Paul! You were just kidding, right?
CONVICTION changes him, J.D. the Holy Spirit! Man realizes there is a decision to make -- a "side" to take. God changing man is called "sanctification." This FOLLOWS justification in which man turns from self to God. First a man must CHOOSE God over self. THEN God will begin to sanctify.
BEFORE! You are mistaking "reformation" with "salvation" (which, now that I think of it, why wouldn't you! :laugh: All you know is "let's reform the Catholic faith" not "let's seek the salvation of God.")
He CAN'T change on his own. He CAN change his mind/repent of self unto salvation. Then God can change/sanctify him. It is clear throughout this discourse of yours that you don't think man needs to be justified in order to receive eternal life, do you?
Yeah, smearing others is a always good substitute for logic, isn't it? Just dismiss others perspectives and the "truth" will go away, won't it. Better watch out -- the "evil one" is just about to steal your "seed" Mr "Wayside!" Mt 13
skypair
Freewill bites the dust
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Feb 5, 2007.
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Keith M
Thank you, brother! Pretty clear if you're not wearing someone else's glasses, ain't it? :laugh:
skypair -
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A quick reply Allan. :)
webdog. Npetreley, johnp is a calvinist and believes this same thing. I believe this: we're all robots and God controls everything we do, including sin.
I wouldn't put it quite like this but total control over everything belongs to God and He exercises that control with an iron rod. Including sin? Why does God still blame us for who resists His will man? :) Yes, including sin. God is Sovereign.
I don't know why it has 'Free-willers:' before it though. :) Any help?
I am told I am a determinist. I am also told that most Calivinists today are indeterminists who border on dualism but I guess that best left unsaid?
john. -
Keith,
I do not know of a single Calvinist who chooses predestination and therefore denies "whosoever will". The Bible teaches both and we affirm both. You assume way too much. -
And IF I did (which is simply a typo) just remove the work 'not'.
Your problem here is that God DID command men to believe in HimClick to expand... -
Hello Sularis.
If faith lies dormant within us Sularis why do we need to receive it as a gift? Eph 2:8-9.
To answer your question - faith isnt the gift in Ephesians 2:8-9Click to expand...
Tell me how faith can lie dormant please. :) HEB 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (KJV)
HEB 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (NIV)
What do you think faith is? According to scripture faith is a certainty and I find it hard to imagine a certainty laying dormant? A faith in a state of rest is not faith, faith is active. It is a sure hope and a certainty. Salvation arrives at the point of this certainty and this certainty is by God's good grace. Only He can open the eyes of men born blind. Only Spirit can give birth to spirit. Praise Him. :)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (NIV)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV)
It's all the same. Being saved and the mechanism used is here. You can't say certainty is dormant, not proper logic old chap. Like saying the fire is cold or the light is dark. What God says is that He gives His chosen certainty to each as He sees fit. By grace He gifts this certainty in a man and commends the man for it. It is because of him that I am in Christ Jesus... 1 Cor 1:30
That is the gift. Certainty and assurance is faith is salvation is being born again is justification is regeneration and the start of a transformation that will end with us being like Him. Only He can open the eyes of men born blind. Only Spirit can give birth to spirit. :) I was dead, He made me alive.
What you think? :)
john. -
Sorry Allan It was meant for MB. Forgive me. :)
john. -
Your problem here is that God DID command men to believe in Him
Words. What I mean is that there is no general call for all men to believe in Jesus. I can see no reason to obligate all who hear the call and charge them with responsibility if they refuse. I would never tell a stranger that Jesus died for his sins, it might be true, it might not be. There would be no legality in obligating sinners when no atonement was given for them? It is impossible to be clean unless an atonement has been made, a person cannot be saved without an atonement. Same the otherway round. If an atonement has been made it is impossible not to be saved, one is. That God controls a man's beliefs still stands. That He draws a man to Jesus or hardens his heart is always His and He applies Himself on each of us. Rom 9:18 ...God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
How's that Allan? Does that answer the point? :)
john. -
MB.
Love me or go to Hell is a restriction of free will isn't it?
Yes it is but it does not restrict a voluntary will.Click to expand...
Men today are procreated. Adam and Eve were created.Click to expand...
Your parents are responsible for bringing you in to the world. It was there choice not God's. Or maybe there accident. God gave us the organs to produce offspring.Click to expand...
Job knew differently.
Hell and sin are both consequences of sin. Sin was caused as was hell by the Law. In order that there be rules there must be consequence.Click to expand...
JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.
A Judge to judge the innocent while the innocent plead for mercy. Does that offend your sense of justice?
It seems your definition of Sovereignty is absolute control.Click to expand...
JOB 9:20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty. 21 "Although I am blameless, I have no concern for myself; I despise my own life. 22 It is all the same; that is why I say, `He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.' 23 When a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks the despair of the innocent. 24 When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?
That heavy or what? :)
If God controlled everything then He is responsible for ever thing even our sins. He would be responsible for all the abortions and child molesting that go on in the world.Click to expand...
Your problem here is that God did not command men to believe in Him.Click to expand...
john. -
skypair said:Look -- put all the "spin" on it you like. That's NOT an intelligible argument.
How do you make it out that we ALL don't have that "disposition within ourselves??" You know what you are doing? You're running in circles. If it's not pride, it's our humility that is our error.
Face the facts for once, will ya? God calls ALL people to Him by His Spirit. Some respond -- some can't help but think of SELF and say no to God, at least for now. Suppose you "hear" God 10 times and don't respond. Does that mean you are not "elect?" Then the 11 time you respond. So not you ARE "elect," right? Election hinges on response -- not on pride or humility or "forechosen" or anything else.
skypairClick to expand... -
Andy T. said:O.k., since our salvation hinges on our response, I am very glad that I responded the right way and am saved. I'm glad I had enough __________ (fill-in-the-blank) to respond the right way. As for those who did not respond the right way, God could have saved them if he wanted to, but he is more concerned about giving his creatures liberterian free will. He would rather see those people burn in hell than save them against their natural will.Click to expand...
skypair -
johnp. said:Your problem here is that God DID command men to believe in Him
Words. What I mean is that there is no general call for all men to believe in Jesus. I can see no reason to obligate all who hear the call and charge them with responsibility if they refuse.Click to expand...
I would never tell a stranger that Jesus died for his sins, it might be true, it might not be.Click to expand...
skypair -
Hi Whatever;
whatever said:Keith,
I do not know of a single Calvinist who chooses predestination and therefore denies "whosoever will". The Bible teaches both and we affirm both. You assume way too much.Click to expand...
MB -
Hi Andy;
Andy T. said:O.k., since our salvation hinges on our response, I am very glad that I responded the right way and am saved. I'm glad I had enough __________ (fill-in-the-blank) to respond the right way. As for those who did not respond the right way, God could have saved them if he wanted to, but he is more concerned about giving his creatures liberterian free will. He would rather see those people burn in hell than save them against their natural will.Click to expand...
MB -
MB said:No belief, No Salvation. Can a man be saved who doesn't believe? We should at least agree on this.
MBClick to expand...
For my last post, I was responding to Skypair and was using his reasoning to show the consequences of such reasoning. -
Andy T. said:O.k., since our salvation hinges on our response, I am very glad that I responded the right way and am saved. I'm glad I had enough __________ (fill-in-the-blank) to respond the right way. As for those who did not respond the right way, God could have saved them if he wanted to, but he is more concerned about giving his creatures liberterian free will. He would rather see those people burn in hell than save them against their natural will.Click to expand...
Non-cals believe, if a man goes to hell it is his fault for rejecting the free gift.
Cals believe, if a man goes to hell it is because God did not choose to save him. He could not possibly accept the free gift, it was not offered to him, and God would not enable him to accept it if it was. -
Blammo said:We all agree that God could save all of mankind if He chose to. The difference is:
Non-cals believe, if a man goes to hell it is his fault for rejecting the free gift.
Cals believe, if a man goes to hell it is because God did not choose to save him. He could not possibly accept the free gift, it was not offered to him, and God would not enable him to accept it if it was.Click to expand...
Under both systems, God chooses not to save some. Non-cals believe that God loves man's liberterian free will more than he loves having people in heaven (otherwise he would change their will to get them into heaven). The Calvinist believes that God loves having people in heaven, so he freed the will of many, in order to save them, because he loved them more than he loved them having 'free will' that was in bondage to sin. -
Salvation
The truth of the matter is we have good news through Jesus anyone can come.
So if you walk away you can only blame yourself, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the.
We should want to tell the whole world the hope they have in Jesus instead of hindering those who are trying to enter. -
Andy T. said:No, if a man goes to hell it is because he is a sinner and deserves to go. God does not have to save anyone.Click to expand...
Under both systems, God chooses not to save some. Non-cals believe that God loves man's liberterian free will more than he loves having people in heaven (otherwise he would change their will to get them into heaven). The Calvinist believes that God loves having people in heaven, so he freed the will of many, in order to save them, because he loved them more than he loved them having 'free will' that was in bondage to sin.Click to expand...
I know you believe what I said you believe. You just said the same with different words. God chooses to change some into believers, so he can have many people in heaven, while leaving the rest on the path to hell. And, I realize, in the non-cal position, God allows many to remain on the path to hell also.
Again, the difference is:
Non-cal - Man could have responded in a positive way to the gospel instead of continuing on his way to hell. (man's fault, not God's choice)
Cal - Man is on the path to hell, where he will remain, unless God chooses to enable him to respond in a positive way to the gospel. (still man's fault, also God's choice)
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