Chappie,
My only serious sentence was my second one.
The Lord has used, at times, different people to stop me in my tracks. What I mean is that what someone has said has been used by the Holy Spirit to re-evaluate my life. Kind a like--Baalam's donkey . . .
Give Me liberty, Or Give Me Justice.
Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ForumChaplain, Aug 31, 2002.
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1) Nations are composed of individuals. To be a respecter of a nation is to be a respecter of the individuals that comprise that nation.
2) As the passage shows, God loved and chose the nation Israel because He loved and chose them. God chose and loved the elect salvifically because He chose and loved them salvifically.
Ken</font>[/QUOTE]Well Sir.
The only way that you can arrive at that conclusion is to isolate the passage from the surrounding text. I am not willing do do that.
Specifically, had God loved them salvifically, they would have all been saved. Scripurally this is not the case. Specifically he chose Abraham, yet chose to honour his promise to Abraham through his descendants.
I gave you a somewhat indept evaluation of the passages, explaining not only what I believe, but giving scripture to demonstrate why i believe. Is this the only rebuttal that you have. If you care to do some serious study, let's do it. Or do we continue on this superficial finger pointing charade.
Are you willing to demonstrate the evidences of your faith, or is that a horse of a different color. -
Ken -
Ken </font>[/QUOTE]Show me by using the passages and the surrounding text to make your point. That is what you asked of me. I cannot embrace your off the cuff illustrations, they leave too many questions unanswered... -
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I am at present in discussions with different individualsof the Calvinist persuasion. Calvinism is as varied as the number ofpeople that you talk to. If it is as scripturally clear as you say, there should be very little difference between what Calvinist believe. Calvinism professes to have Calvinist and hyper-calvinist. Which ones are intrepreting the scriptures incorrectly??
Does this passage standing alone or in the contest of surrounding passages prove individual election?????
2 Thess.2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
II Th 2:8-17
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Unrighteousness has the power to deceive. Those that perish have embraced unrighteousness, because they would not embrace (receive) a love of truth that they might be saved. They chose a love of the pleasures of unrighteousness over the benefits of loving the truth.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Because they have volitionally chosen the pleasures of unrighteousness, God will send them a strong delusion that they may believe the lie that allows them to live the lie that they have chosen without any more interference or conviction from God.
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
God does this that all that have chosen the pleasures of unrighteousness may be justly condemned for their action. God actually turns them over to the pleasures of their unrighteousness that they may enjoy it while they can. God removes any conviction of conscience. (Reprobate mind)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
“But we” (We being plural by definition) give thanks to God for you brethren (Brethren, plural by definition) because God hath from the beginning chosen you (You, the brethren) to be saved through sanctification (being set aside to be holy) of the spirit, and by believing the truth. There is no individual election here. Those that are chosen are chosen because of a belief in the truth.
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
They were called unto this sanctification and truth by the Gospel, (Nothing about a gospel and an efficacious gospel) A gospel that is sufficient unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
Stand fast, to what you have been taught, as our Lord and even the father which has loved us (Us, plural} has given us this gift through his grace. (Through Grace, not election…)
Pastor Larry, would you please demonstrate using the surrounding passages how 2 Thess.2:13, demonstrates individual election. As a scripture standing in context it fails, IMHO, to do so. Standing alone it can be used to prove many things….
[ September 23, 2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ] -
Pretty simple when a person stops and thinks about it for a while. :D
Ken -
Pretty simple when a person stops and thinks about it for a while. :D
Ken</font>[/QUOTE]I am so embarassed: I stopped, I thought, but i still missed it. Perhaps, using scripture you can explain it to me... -
Ken -
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Just like God chose the nation Israel. Did he not choose the individual people who made up the nation, since he is the one who chooses where people are born and when? -
Just like God chose the nation Israel. Did he not choose the individual people who made up the nation, since he is the one who chooses where people are born and when?</font>[/QUOTE]So, a new concept: God now elects by choosing when and where a person will be born. If God does that, then he does create and limits some men to hell. Created for hell is more like it. Such a sad concept when attributed to a just and loving God. -
Hello Pastor Larry.
I am still waiting for your evaluation of the passages that I posted my intrepretation of. Please evaluate the way that I used surrounding scripture to arrive at my conclusions.
Interested to know if you perceive my study methods to be flawed, if so please show me where you feel that I went wrong.
If my conclusions are in error, the rules that I use in arriving at them is the major culprit. This is why i would like others opinions on the way that I arrive at my conclusions.
Really interested in the methods that others use to arrive at their conclusions.
Probably make a great thread, How to properly exegete scripture.
I at least hope that everyone can see that my exegesis is an honest attempt to understand scripture, instead of just an attempt to discredit someone elses doctrine.
[ September 24, 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ] -
(Acts 17:26-28 NKJV) "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, {27} "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; {28} "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'
Ken -
(Acts 17:26-28 NKJV) "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, {27} "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; {28} "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'
Ken</font>[/QUOTE]Ken:
Whenever you reply with scripture alone, often they appear to have very little to do with what is being discussed.
Please allow me to explain.
You and I have arrived at completely opposite conclusions while reading the same scripture. Therefore, I am sure that they make perfect sense to you. But because you do not explain to me how said scriptures support what you believe, i am often left fustrated and in the dark.
Without some commentary on your part, I will not understand.....
Any help that you offer will be greatly appreciated.....
Muchas Gracias... -
Christian regards,
Ken -
Christian regards,
Ken </font>[/QUOTE]We are all sticking to God's words, yet we continue to come up with differing opinions.
Is this a "yes", I will; or a "No", I won't??? -
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(Isaiah 8:20 NKJV) To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Christian regards,
Ken
[ September 24, 2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
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