No I don't. I have spoken to a great many of them. But I also realize that among the Calvinists here there are many stripes and colors of them--some more extreme than others.
God can only save those who believe
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008.
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pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
Nothing can be sadder than to have to read what a brother-in-Christ says of other brethren's beliefs, and the insinuations of such statement.
Calvinists and those who adhere to the Doctrine of Grace have so often been accused of twisting Scriptures and preaching lies, and when they argue back, they are said to be the ones who start the "fight".
Twice, Paul states that previous to their regeneration, or their "coming to belief", if you will, they were "dead", that is to say, "spiritually dead". These are in Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13.
What else can it be but "spiritually dead" ? The death that God warned Adam about was not physical death, obviously, for he did not die but lived hundreds of years, yet his close fellowship with his Creator was cut off.
Neither was Paul referring to the Ephesians or the Colossians as "resurrectees". They were regenerates. Formerly dead sinners whom the Savior reconciled with their Creator through His own blood.
Once Paul says of natural men (whether one likes to refer to them as "unregenerate", "reprobate", "unconverted", or "unsaved") that the things of God are foolishness and indiscernable to them, much less received as truth.
If the natural man, therefore, is in such spiritual condition, how then can he have a will which is contrary to a dead nature and can be manifested only by a living nature ?
Even the Calvinist-haters of this board will concede that God cannot go against His own nature, which is good. He cannot sin. He cannot contradict Himself. He cannot not do good, even to those that hate Him, which is what Christ demonstrated while on this earth, when he fed people, healed them, ate with them, even though he knew that not all of those who milled about Him and companied with him loved Him.
He loved, because He knew what He said in His own Scriptures. To everything, there is a season.....His having loved them does not mean they will escape judgment. One day He will come back and separate the reprobate from the regenerate.
God is good, because that is His nature, and that is His nature because He is light and not darkness, life and not death. The Scripture refers to Him as the Father of lights.
If God, whose nature is good and who is the giver and source of life, cannot go against and outside of His own nature, how then is it that the natural man, which according to Scripture is dead in sin and trespasses (which I take to mean "deep fried" in sin and trespasses), able to possess more power and prerogative than the Creator, in that he is able to overcome his nature and exercise a free will that pleases His Creator with no help at all ?
Doesn't such a thought raise man higher than his Creator ?
Whereas his Creator is bound by His Holy and Good nature, the creature, on the other hand is not ? -
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The following is from Chapter 10 , section 1 of the Westminster Confession of Faith .
All those whom God hath predestined unto life , and those only , he is pleased , in his appointed and accepted time , effectually to call , by his word and Spirit , out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature , to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ ;enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God ; taking away their heart of stone , and giving unto them an heart of flesh ; renewing their wills , and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good , and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ ; yet so as they come most freely , being made willing by his grace . -
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Now if you are referring to the previous one which Pinoy already commented on, (as well as myself), then yes, the statement was intended to be an exagerration, a literary device known as hyperbole used to get a person's attention. And it worked, didn't it? -
Arminian
I'm not speaking of aminian, but for non-cals. We non-cals is a doctrine of grace which is more scriptual grace through faith. We are saved by grace through faith.
I know many calvinist who know how much faith is important to, but to say that if we are not calvinist our doctrine is not of grace , that is a lie.
The truth is not grace alone but grace through faith there is no other way. Which are faith did not come from our self ,but from God from His word. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
But, you see, what is currently on the table and being discussed, is whether or not God saves only those who are able to believe, and the most current area of discussion pertains to whether one has inherent faith, or whether that faith must come from God.
So, if you are saying that one's faith must necessarily be from God, and has no inherence in its character, then there is nothing to discuss. Right ? -
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Yes, it is speaking of spiritually dead. When the spirit is dead, it is separated from God. It needs to be made alive by the Holy Spirit. That happens at conversion, when a man is born again.
But that was not the case with Adam. Adam was a child of God and never lost his salvation. He only lost his fellowship with God. The Scriptures say:
"For by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, so that all have sinned."
A number of things happened:
1. Adam knew evil. He didn't know evil before that time.
2. The curse upon the world, and Adam and the race entered the world, and thus the effects of degeneration.
3. Man inherited a sin nature that would be passed on from generation to generation.
4. Because of man's sin, physical death entered into the world.
5. Man's sin separated him from God. (as a believer sin would cause separation from God in fellowship. As an unsaved man sin would cause separation from God for all eternity). Either way sin cause separation from God.
Your second premise which is also your conclusion, is a non sequitor.
It comes out of no where.
No one has claimed it. It makes no sense. It has no logic to anything previous to what you have said.
Who said (or even inferred) that man "is able to possess more power and preogative than the Creator, in that he is able to overcome his nature and exercise a free will that pleases his Creator with no help at all."
If ever there was a "false accusation" it is there, or a misrepresentation of the facts, it is there. Show me where any non-Cal, ever said that. These are your conclusions based on unfounded information. Notice I agreed with most of what you said. Then out of the wild, out of the blue, you come up with this. It just appears! Where is the logic?
BTW, has any non-Cal, ever denied the operation of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of man. No. They deny the concept that the Calvinist unwittingly pushes forward that man is nothing more than a robot with no choice whatsoever. We see this in Calvinism again and again.
But this is an unbiblical concept.
Man does have free will to choose Christ or to reject him, and yet all in the bounds of the sovereignty of God. Here is where you actually deny God's sovereignty and His power. Is not God powerful enough to make man in his own image, give him the power of choice, a free will to choose, and still remain God the Creator at the same time. You have a very limited view of God if you cannot concede that point. Your view of God is limited to Calvin and Augustine, and can procede no further than those two men. At least I can dwell in the glorious teachings and meditate in the revelation of the Bible to further my knowledge of God. I am not confined by a system of one or two men's beliefs when it comes to "theology."
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Faith
Faith will never be an inherited thing. I never seen anyone wake up with faith.
Faith comes from God's word and just like the young rich ruler you can walk away.
God can save anyone, but His word tells us that He will only save those who believe in His Son.
It isn't that God can only save those who believe, but that God made a covanant with us that He will only save those who believe in His Son.
That is God's choice, who are we to question God and His word.
It isn't that He can save only those who believe, but He will do what His word says.
You say calvinism is a doctrine of grace, our doctrine is a doctrine of grace which we include the whole truth grace through faith.
I am saved by grace, because Jesus paid the price for my sins so I don't have to.
My belief didn't save me and I wouldn't and couldn't boast over my belief, but what Jesus did for me on the cross.
Without Jesus belief or no belief no one could be saved so we boast over Him.
This faith didbn't come from myself it came from God through His word. -
Hmm , if you can't read one sentence in one breath , you don't bother reading it . Well , I guess you haven't spent the needed time and energy to read Ephesians 1:7-12 in your KJV . That is six verses , but only one sentence .So , because you have an inability to read a long sentence I will give you the NIV rendering so you might be able to begin to grasp the content of the passage .It breaks it up into three sentences .
"In him we have redemption through his blood , the forgiveness of sins , in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding . And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure , which he purposed in Christ , to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head , even Christ . In him we were also chosen , having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will , in order that we , who were the first to hope in Christ , might be for the praise of his glory ." -
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I think that the WCoF passage used very scriptural language to express God's effectual grace . It flows with biblical terminology . But maybe you didn't read it carefully enough -- as you said . It was too much for you to absorb in one long sentence .
I do indeed hold to Sola Scriptura . Shame on you to say or suggest otherwise .But I am aware of your MO by now , so I am not surprised . -
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BTW , 'syntaxically' isn't a word . And it's 'obfuscated' , not 'obfiscuted'. You need to adhere more closely to your KISS method . -
DHK,
The "Glossary" might have such hard-to-intepret words as "whosoever," "all," "elect," "foreknow," etc. redefined in more understandable terms. "Whosoever" and "all" might mean "whosoever is elect" and "all the elect" respectively. In the same "Glossary" we might find "foreknow" defined as "predestine."
I can understand you thinking that the term "Doctrine of Grace" is thrown around quite loosely. I think they purposely make these terms more confusing.
skypair -
Job 32:8-10 "But there is a spirit in man [man's CONSCIENCE]:
and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding [the Holy Spirit INSPIRES the CONSCIENCE of the "natural man"].
Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment [There's your Calvinism spoken of by Elihu. Conscience and inspiration don't always keep "great" and "aged" men from being a greater influence than the Holy Spirit unfortunately! :tear: ]."
Therefore I said, Hearken to me;" [Elihu is about to "preach so that Job may be "inspired" and "hear" and be saved! Rom 10:14-15]
skypair
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