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Featured God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alan Gross, Jun 20, 2020.

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  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Adapted from Roderick Edwards @ http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/prooftext.html

    The account I’m thinking of is one where God basically makes a bet with the Devil that one of God’s faithful will not curse God no matter what happens to him.

    Of course, I speak of the Jobian account, which after introducing us to Job himself, reads:


    "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

    And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

    So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

    Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

    So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

    And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.
    So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1:6-12 NKJV)


    This is the classic situation people use when they question the idea of God being in control of everything.

    They claim like Satan here, that when bad things happen a person will blame/curse God or even give up their faith…especially if it is considered that God actually “allows” those bad things to happen let alone actually DECLARING those things to happen.

    Look again at the text above.

    Satan says for God to “stretch out His hand” against Job.

    God isn’t just “allowing” Satan to torment Job, but even so, by God “allowing” Satan to torment Job, some would find God at “fault”.

    After all, Job didn’t deserve this did he?


    Over the course of this torment, Job loses all of his family members & his all of his possessions (Job 1:13-20). Note how he loses them.

    Does Satan have the power to send down “fire of God” or “great winds”?

    Yet in Job 1:22 we see Job does NOT curse/blame God.

    Wow! A lot more faith then most of us.


    Well, Satan comes to up the ante & we read in Job 2:3-6


    Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”

    So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

    And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”


    So, Satan is given leave & begins to torment Job with boils all over his body (a plague).

    But notice again how Job 2:3-6 is worded.

    God says Satan incited God against Job…so again we see these things that are happening to Job are at God’s hand. After all, if Satan had the ability to torment Job on his own, why is he coming before God to get the deed done?

    Now, even Job’s wife thinks he should curse God for what is happening yet Job does not. (Job 2:9-10)


    Job’s “friends” come to “comfort” him in his grief but you can tell they really think he must have done something to deserve all of this wrath. Job begins to feel sorry for himself. (Job 2:11-13, Job 3)

    As a matter of fact, it looks like his “friends” are kind of playing a gottcha game with Job – since Job had a reputation as an upright man & now it appears he is getting his due, as if he is suffering from secret sin that deserves to be corrected. (Job 4-5)

    This back & forth between Job & his friends continues for several chapters until a young observer named Elihu chimes in:


    So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

    Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God.

    Also against his three friends his wrath was aroused, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. (Job 32:1-3)


    Notice what’s happening. Job was “righteous in his own eyes” – this means Job thought it was unfair for God to “allow” all these things to be happening to him.


    Permission to Republish is granted.

    Con't:
     
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  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Elihu is also depicted as being upset with Job’s “friends” because they were missing the point of what this was all about. Elihu wants to deal with the OVER-ARCHING PREMISE of God’s nature instead of Job’s individual experience.

    After all, Job’s “friends” were using “logical” arguments…but for all the “logic” is ignored the OVER-ARCHING PREMISE of God’s nature.


    In Job 33:8-12, Elihu recounts Job’s argument/complaint & then Elihu begins his answer which reads:


    “Surely you have spoken in my hearing, And I have heard the sound of your words, saying, ‘I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me. Yet He finds occasions against me, He counts me as His enemy; He puts my feet in the stocks, He watches all my paths.’ “Look, in this you are not righteous. I will answer you, For God is greater than man.


    So, Elihu correctly relates that Job’s problem is that he thinks it is unfair that God “finds occasions against” him & then Elihu tells Job he is not righteous to be thinking this say & that the issue is that God is greater than man.

    Elihu spends the next few chapters laying out the case that God as the Creator can do what He wants with His creation AND it is still “fair”.

    Elihu sums up his case by saying:


    Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! (Job 34:35) Moreover Elihu answered and said: “Do you think this is right?

    Do you say, ‘My righteousness is more than God’s’?

    For you say, ‘What advantage will it be to You?

    What profit shall I have, more than if I had sinned?’ (Job 35:1-3)


    What??? Poor Job was minding his own business & had his entire family wiped out, his possessions destroyed or taken, & is suffering from boils from head to feet & yet Elihu is so cold (might we say “mean” & “hurtful”, or “unChrist-like” -- comments like this against Elihu we would often hear even from the mouths of so-called Christians) that he is saying that Job is behaving like a wicked man in his answers.

    How could Elihu be so insensitive?


    Then God comes into the picture & basically backs up everything Elihu had been telling Job.

    In Job 38-40 God makes the distinction that He is God the Creator & we are mere creatures.

    Then God asks Job to answer:


    Moreover, the LORD answered Job, and said: “Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?

    He who rebukes God, let him answer it.”

    Then Job answered the LORD and said: “Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth. Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further.”

    Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: “Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me: “Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified? (Job 40:1-8)



    Notice how Job finally realizes the OVER-ARCHING PREMISE of God’s nature – that God is God & we are not.

    God then asks Job if man’s judgment should be put in place of God’s judgment so that man can decide what is & isn’t just/fair.


    God continues to make the case that He is the Creator & can do what He wants with His creation & by the time we get to Job 42, Job now understands & repents.

    God goes on to correct Job’s friends for not speaking “what is right” of God.

    Then God restores & even increases Job’s possessions & gives him new sons & daughters. But even had God NOT restored Job’s possessions & family, God would STILL be righteous & just.


    To conclude, this is the best proof-text in the Bible for relating God’s Sovereignty & Complete Control.

    It answers every objection coming either from a non-believer or a believer concerning God’s nature.

    Even so, some believers will have a difficult time worshiping a God like the one depicted in Job.

    They instead want to envision some grandfatherly God that would never impose His will upon His creation.

    People who will not accept the God depicted in Job are like Job who was “justifying himself when he should have been justifying God” (Job 32:2)
     
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yep, Calvinists claim God predestined our each and every sin, then punishes us for doing what He compelled us to do.
     
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  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    7 Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

    8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.

    9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.…Isaiah 55:7-9

    The message of Job was Given 7,000 years ago and has been received by God's children since then.

    No mention is made of Calvin in The Book of Job.
     
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  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    It's not a bet. God doesn't gamble. God is goading Satan so that God can show Satan that God is Sovereign. God knows Job, as He knows everyone. He knows that the faith He gave Job will persevere against all that Satan could do. In essence, God is mocking Satan and Satan falls right into God's trap.

    I suggest the teaching series by Derek Thomas in Ligonier.It's free at the moment and worth the listen.
    The Book of Job by Derek Thomas

     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    This is your false assertion, either intentional or out of ignorance.
    God certainly ordains that men follow their sinful desires and God either chooses to intervene or allow, based solely upon His predetermined will for His creation.

    What you reveal is the fact that you cannot face the wretchedness of your own sin and how evil that makes you. Moreso, you want all the control to fix your own problem without God.
     
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  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Romans 11:33-36. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out!
    "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counsellor?"
    (Isaiah 40:13; cf. Jeremiah 23:18)
    "Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him?" (cf. Job 41:11)
    For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.'
     
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  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Deflection on display, God does not cause or predestine whatsoever comes to pass, He allows people to choose to bring Him glory or not. This truth is presented from beginning to end in scripture, including the book Job, written after the time of Solomon, about a man (Job) who lived probably circa 2000 BC, or about 4000 years ago.
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am rather sick of this self righteous blowhards constantly deflecting from a discussion and disparaging me with generalizations, requiring no actual knowledge of scripture or Calvinism.


    Yep, Calvinists claim God predestined our each and every sin, then punishes us for doing what He compelled us to do.
    They claim God "ordains" (meaning predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, and then using cognitive dissonance, say God does not "ordain" (meaning predestine) sin. But "whatsoever comes to pass" includes sin. So there you have it, a ludicrous doctrine supported by deflection and disparagement. That is all folks.
     
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  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Van, the Bible teaches predestination. Have you simply deleted these passages from your Bible so you can deny them? Or do you prefer to twist them in ways that castrate what Paul said?
    What I know about you is that you have a poor understanding of John Calvin and you apply your ignorance to all person's who attest to the teaching of the Bible as it relates to predestination.

    Your assertions are therefore illegitimate and every Christian should rightfully treat them as such.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did I say the bible does not teach predestination? Nope so deflection.
    Next the usual personal attack, "you have a poor understanding of John Calvin." No meat on that bone.
    I present the actual biblical doctrine of predestination, not the Calvinist perversion.

    Returning to the topic:
    Calvinists claim God predestined our each and every sin, then punishes us for doing what He compelled us to do.
    They claim God "ordains" (meaning predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, and then using cognitive dissonance, say God does not "ordain" (meaning predestine) sin. But "whatsoever comes to pass" includes sin. So there you have it, a ludicrous doctrine supported by deflection and disparagement. That is all folks.

    Here is the issue boiled down to its essence:
    Calvinists claim God predestined our each and every sin, then punishes us for doing what He compelled us to do.
     
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  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens.
     
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Twaddle, the issue is if God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, then God is the author of sin. Further, if God then punishes those who sinned because of God's compulsion, the injustice vilifies God.
    Calvinism on display

    God's sovereignty is defined as God causing or allowing whatsoever comes to pass.
     
    #13 Van, Jun 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    The Greek word in question is proorizo. It is found six times in the NT.
    Four times it is translated 'predestinate' in the KJV ('predestine' in the ESV). Twice in Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5; Ephesians 1:11.
    It is translated as 'ordain' in 1 Corinthians 2:7 ('decreed' in the ESV) and as 'determine beforehand' in Acts of the Apostles 4:28 ('predestine' in the ESV).

    Readers may like to look these verses up to check the contexts and to compare with other trustworthy translations.
     
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  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    God is God.
     
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  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    'God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass (Isaiah 46:10-11; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18) - yet in such away that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins (James 1:13-15; 1 John 1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creature [i.e. no one is made to sin] nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28; John 19:11).
    In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree (Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5).
    1689 Baptist Confession 3:1. N.B. By God's 'faithfulness' in the final paragraph is meant His unswerving conformity to His own holy character and His revealed word.
     
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  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    At least some bible knowledge is indicated by this post. How refreshing!
    But why was my quote edited to eliminate the answer? Here is the edited quote:
    Did I say the bible does not teach predestination?
    And here is the unedited quote:
    Did I say the bible does not teach predestination? Nope so deflection.

    Now that my view has been presented accurately, what is the post trying to say? That the bible does indeed teach predestination? But that is not in dispute.

    In Romans 8:29-30 those that have been placed in Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Predestined to be saved is no where to be found.

    In Ephesians 1:5 God predestined those that have been placed in Christ to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. Again, predestined to be saved is no where to be found.

    In Ephesians 1:11 the predestined "inheritance" refers to our redemption, so once again, predestined to be saved is no where to be found.

    In 1 Corinthians 2:7 the Lord of Glory (Christ Jesus) was predestined before the ages, so predestined to salvation is no where to be found.

    In Acts of the Apostles 4:28 the predestined plan for Christ to suffer and die is in view, but predestined to salvation is no where to be found.
     
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for proving the cognitive dissonance where God predestined all things that shall ever come to pass, while at the same time saying God did not predestine all thing that shall ever come to pass.
     
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  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    This is an utterly false assertion born by your ignorance or dogma. That is not Calvinism on display...that is Vanism on display.

    That is not the definition of God's Sovereignty.
    John Piper has provided a more accurate definition.
    There are no limits to God’s rule. This is part of what it means to be God. He is sovereign over the whole world, and everything that happens in it. He is never helpless, never frustrated, never at a loss. And in Christ, God’s awesome, sovereign providence is the place we feel most reverent, most secure, most free.

    God Is Sovereign over the Universe
    Whenever God acts, he acts in a way that pleases him. God is never constrained to do a thing that he despises. He is never backed into a corner where his only recourse is to do something he hates to do. He does whatever he pleases.
    The Sovereignty of God

    When we say God is sovereign, we mean he is powerful and authoritative to the extent of being able to override all other powers and authorities. That’s my effort at a definition. Nothing can successfully stop any act or any event or design or purpose that God intends to certainly bring about.
    What Is the Sovereignty of God?
     
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  20. timtofly

    timtofly Active Member

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    Actually Job was perfect despite God’s sovereignty. Which refutes the whole of Reformed theology. There is nothing about God that forced Job to be perfect. One can call it self righteousness, but in name only. Job was not self righteous because that is what he was accused of being. He ended up being self-righteous because he did question God and because of the accusations of his friends. He listened to his friends and not God.

    Satan accused Job of only being righteous because God’s Sovereignty blessed Job. But was Job righteous because of God’s blessings? No.

    His wife accused Job of being too righteous. She just wanted him to sin and die.

    His friends blamed God, by thinking God was punishing Job. Job was not being punished. But because of the words of his friends, his self righteousness did start. Job would not be wrong in justifying a sinless lifestyle. Job would be wrong in rationalizing he was blameless before God.

    God's Sovereignty as an argument is wrong about predestination and foreknowledge. Paul already explained Calvin's points. Going past Paul is the issue. Reformed theology adds interpretation to the fact of God's Sovereignty to a point that Paul would not answer. Not because Paul had no answer, but because it cannot be found in any Scripture, not even Job. Job was not predestined to be blessed, nor was foreknowledge mentioned. If that were the case, should Satan use that instead of the blessings themselves? Why did Satan not say that God predestined Job to be a perfect human without fault? Was God lying about predestination and foreknowledge by not stating it in Satan's accusations? If God really taught Reformed theology, would not Job be the book to declare it? Did God predestine the apostasy of the last days which would cause a huge reduction in who gets saved?

    Or is the church being tested like Job, and just going to come out the same with self-righteous rationalizations? The chief rationalization, that God just condemns some to hell, because God can. The rationalization that Atonement is limited. The rationalization that humans are depraved, but going a step further that this depravity nullifies free will. All these points do not justify God's Sovereignty. They only rationalize a false interpretation that tried to explain what Paul had already settled in the 1st century. Reformed theology itself brought on this apostate condition. The church (Job) listened to false teachings like that of Job's friends rationalizing God’s Word, instead of the church, each individual, keeping in the Word of God themselves.
     
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