In adoption who does the choosing, the one being adopted or the one who is doing the adopting? Also, regeneration is compared in scripture to a new birth, did you play a role in your first birth or only your parents, did you choose to be born? Regeneration is also compared to a resurrection, did Lazarus have a choice not to come forth and resist Christ's call? Finally, regeneration is compared to a new creation? Did Adam choose to create himself of have a role in such to play? No to all these things so it is with being born again, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13)
God knows us before We are Born Therefore He Predestines By that Forknowledge
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Jan 19, 2016.
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Add Rom. 9:16, too Brother Joseph.
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Having been a believer for so many years, it has always amazed me when I've been involved in someone being saved. Seriously - you can preach the Gospel until you are blue in the face and have the perfect arguments - and the people can actually agree - but they still will not turn to God. But then you have that awkward moment where you stumble through what God has told us and it's like a man dying of thirst suddenly getting water. You don't need to do anything or say much!! They hear and they respond!!! That really has taught me that it's NOT based on our choosing God but His choosing us. :) If God were to wait for someone to come to Him, no one would be saved.
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In Answer to TCassidy in his Post #64 The only ones who have faith are the ones He regenerates. Again, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A LOST PERSON TO HAVE FAITH!
This is true a lost person is lost because they have no faith in Jesus, and only Faith in the finished work of Christ saves a person.
And his Post #71 You have it just backwards. God regenerated your lost, dead heart, and gave you faith and enabled you to love and obey Him.
Once again you claim that a lost person can have faith when the bible is very clear. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A LOST PERSON TO HAVE FAITH.
1 John 5:1 makes is abundantly clear "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."
"Has been" is a perfect passive verb. Such a verb says that something done to the person in the past is what is responsible for his condition in the present.
In other words the verse says "Whoever (now) believes (present tense) that Jesus is the Christ (had been, in the past) born or God (which now has created the present state of his being a believer)."
Let’s now look closer at the question, does regeneration precede faith or does faith precede regeneration. Actually in a twinkling of eye Faith occurs, in that same moment, regeneration, justification, sanctification in other words the all the full benefits of Salvation occur in the twinkling of an eye. Let’s define regeneration, what is regeneration, to cause to be born again spiritually. What is regenerated in the believer? Spiritual life so if regeneration precedes believing that precedes faith then where is the need to believe, they have already been saved (born anew). Let’s look at a few verses on this, John 6:47 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” John 3:15 “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” Both verses state life comes after believing that is after Faith. Now let’s write these verses based on regeneration before faith as you have stated occurs, John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that has everlasting must believe. And John 3:15 Whosoever has everlasting life will not perish and will believe. That is a little backwards isn’t it? Let’s apply this same rule regeneration to John 1:12 But as many as have been regenerated, to them gave He the power to believe on His Name, even to those who have become the children of God, what does John 1:12 actually say? John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” Received that is through Faith right? If regeneration that is Spiritual life occurs prior to belief that prior to Faith then there is no need for Faith, the person already has Spiritual and eternal life.
Let’s look at Spurgeon on this: : "If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [Sermon entitled The Warrant of Faith].
Then look to Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” At the moment we are regenerated we also receive the Holy spirit in us who comes and indwells us so if regeneration precedes Faith believing then the Holy Spirit already indwells and there again is no need to believe, no need for Faith, salvation has already taken place. Yet John 3:14-16 makes it very clear it is Faith, Believing that saves a person and brings to them Spiritual and eternal Life.
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If regeneration precedes faith, then what must a sinner do to be regenerated? -
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By the way, try reading the rest of Spurgeon's message. It shows how either ignorant or dishonest you are regarding what he said. -
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Rev fails miserably to understand the sermon Spurgeon preached, and deceptively took his quote entirely out of context.
individuals away from their only sure warrant for trusting in Christ, namely, the objective commands and invitations of the gospel.
Hyper-Calvinism denies such a universal warrant, applicable to all, and claims, instead, that Scripture only addresses invitations to specific people—to the penitent, the ‘heavy laden’, to the convicted, to the ‘sensible’ sinner and so on. Under such preaching, gospel hearers must first find some warrant within themselves for thinking that Christ’s invitations are addressed to them personally. Subjective experience is thus made a kind of necessary preliminary and qualification before anyone can trust in scriptural promises.
Against this, Spurgeon held that the scriptural warrant for the unconverted to trust in Christ rests on nothing in themselves; the warrant lies in the invitation of Christ. His entire presentation of the gospel turned on the truth that no sinner has any more warrant than any other for trusting in Christ. The warrant lies in Scripture alone.
Before a man has any willingness to be saved, it is ‘his duty to believe in Christ, for it is not man’s willingness that gives him a right to believe. Men are to believe in obedience to God’s command. God commandeth all men everywhere to repent, and this is his great command, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”.’
Christ’s ambassadors are authorised to call ‘on all people of every clime and kindred, to believe the gospel with a promise of personal salvation to each and every one that believes.’ The message is not, ‘Wait for feelings’, it is, ‘Believe and live’. ‘I find Jesus Christ says nothing to sinners about waiting, but very much about coming.’
To this the Hyper-Calvinists replied that if all are called to trust in Christ then such trust must involve them in believing a falsehood because Christ has not died for all. In their view, to preach a universal warrant is to deny that redemption is definite and particular. This was a further ground for charging Spurgeon with inconsistency, for he believed in particular redemption and yet summoned all to believe in Christ. But Spurgeon, along with Scripture, did not make, ‘Believe that Christ died for you’, part of faith to which the unbeliever is summoned. The call to the sinner is to commit himself to Christ, not because he has been saved but rather because he is lost and must come to Jesus in order to be saved.
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To deny a universal warrant, and to require subjective experiences before Christ is trusted, is bound to lead to confusion and legality. Such teaching makes men look at themselves instead of the Saviour. It leads people to suppose that possessing a broken heart and feeling the burden of sin are some kind of qualification for believing. But this is to require a discernment on the part of would-be converts for which Scripture does not ask. The truth is that individuals under conviction are unable to understand themselves and it is common for those who are most burdened to fear that they have no true sense of sin at all. The Holy Spirit is indeed given to convict of sin but Scripture says nothing about him assuring the convicted of their convictions prior to faith. On this Spurgeon says in the same sermon on ‘The Warrant of Faith’: ‘I believe the tendency of that preaching which puts the warrant for faith anywhere but in the gospel command, is to vex the true penitent, and to console the hypocrite; the tendency of it is to make the poor soul which really repents, feel that he must not believe in Christ, because he sees so much of his own hardness of heart. The more spiritual a man is, the more unspiritual he see himself to be . . . Often the most penitent men are those who think themselves the most impenitent.’
‘If we begin to preach to sinners that they must have a certain sense of sin and a certain measure of conviction, such teaching would turn the sinner away from God in Christ to himself. The man begins at once to say, “Have I a broken heart? Do I feel the burden of sin?” This is only another form of looking at self. Man must not look to himself to find reasons for God’s grace.’
—Iain Murray, Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism (Banner of Truth, 2002), 71–74, 77–78.
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