We're not far off here.
The difference is how much God reveals of himself to people and how able they are to see it.
But there is no choice. Everyone exposed to gravity believes in it. They don't choose to believe in it. It causes them to beleive in it.
God will call His Elect to Salvation
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by evangelist6589, Feb 17, 2014.
Page 4 of 5
-
-
-
Here's a popular verse that gets bandied about:
Look closely at that first line, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve"...
Now, most will state that this is a choice to serve God or not. If you thought it was evil to serve the Lord, would you? I sure wouldn't. -
They did not choose to believe, they chose to serve based on what they believed.
It's like saying, "If it seem safe unto you to cross this rope bridge, choose you this day to cross or not to cross."
The choice to cross is based on something that has HAPPENED TO the potential crosser. That something that has happened to him is that he has been persuaded that it is safe or he has NOT been persuaded.
The bridge either convinced the potential crosser that it was trustworthy or it didn't.
God persuades some men that he is Lord. Others do not get persuaded. No choice involved. -
And this brings us right back to the crux of the argument...NATURE. Men choose according to their nature. Whilst Moses was on Mt. Sinai getting the Ten Commandments, the Israelites made them an idol of gold and worshipped it. They chose according to their nature....they chose a lifeless idol, because they were spiritually lifeless. -
I believe God is clearly making himself known (Rm 1) and the gospel itself only builds upon what is already revealed in creation, thus creating a very powerful and convincing truth by which our TRUST can grow...assuming we don't CHOOSE to trade the clearly revealed truth in for lies allowing our hearts to grow hardened and defiled (as Paul warns in Rm 1).
All men are without excuse for not placing their trust in God, but Calvinism creates a new excuse for all men that isn't ever taught in scripture, which is, "God doesn't provide the ability for some to clearly see, understand and willingly respond to the revelation of Himself."
GRAVITY IS AN ILLUSION?>>>>>
THE EARTH IS FLAT>>>>
Need I say more? -
-
-
-
-
-
Now, I want to expound upon that previous post of mine. I am sure I can find how far our agreement goes. We are born sinners, sinners as being born in Adam...or I think you hold to this view...if I am wrong, please forgive me. As sinners, we are spiritually dead...not akin a corpse dead, but dead to righteousness...IOW, we're in the dark. In this darkened state, we are also blind, with a hardened heart. No amount of gospel preaching can change this state. That's why I am anti-gospel regeneration.(I think this is where I agreement stops, btw) If it took someone to hear the gospel to be regenerated, then the deaf people are goners. God is the one that does the regeneration, and then the gospel expounds upon it. They have new eyes to see with...coming out of darkness into that glorious Light. They have a new heart, a fleshly heart, a heart of love. They have ears to hear with. All of these took place at the point of regeneartion. Here's some passages to ponder:
As you can see, those who die lost, have no desire to come to the Light. Why? They love darkness, they're content to stay in darkness. They believe their good works and "God loves everyone" means they can do these good deeds and based solely on "God's equal love for all mankind" will take them to heaven. There are homosexual couples that actively work in their "church". They pay their tithes, they pray, they vist the sick, homeless, are good to their neighbors, etc. They think/believe they're going to heaven when they leave this world. They have been deceived and yet, they live happily in discord with the record of God. No amount of "thumping the pulpit" preaching will change their minds. It takes God to reveal this to them. If He doesn't, then they were not of His, and He left them in their already fallen state.
Here's some more verses to ponder:
Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Now, let's look at one more passage that your side of the debate loves to use:
Then there's "Gave Himself for us" and "redeemed us". Who is the "us" in this passage? The church, which Christ gave his life for(Ephesians 5:25). Then in John 10, who did Jesus say the good Shepherd was? Who would the Shepherd give His life for? He's the good Shepherd who gave His life for His sheep. He even prayed for His sheep in John 17, and not for the world. He then said, "not for these only, but those who would believe their word."
So the "all men" in verse 11 of Titus 2, has to be the church, the bride, the elct, the chosen, the sheep...those He chose from the foundation of the world. And these He chose from the foundation of the world, will have that Light shine in their darkened heart, and it will cause a Godly sorrow to set up, and bring about God-given repentance(2 Cor. 7:10). This God-given repentance will then bring them to Him, and they will surrender their life into His hands. -
26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
Willis, take note of three important points:
1. They weren't born hardened/calloused as you suggested, but they 'become calloused' over time after much rebellion.
2. Had they not 'become calloused' notice what they might have done otherwise: "Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn"
3. Notice the contrast with the Jews who have been HARDENED, and the Gentiles who are not? "they will listen." Why would they be able to listen any better than the Jews if they were born in the same fallen, totally depraved, hardened condition?
Thanks for your time today brother! -
-
EVERYBODY believes in "gravity" though they may call it something else. But no one denies that there is something holding us on the earth.
Sane people have NO CHOICE but to believe in it. -
-
-
-
So depending on who is hearing it, gospel is BOTH good and bad news!
Page 4 of 5