Allan,
Thank you for the clarification.
"Need" is not, I think, a proper term. God chooses to blind/harden the already blind/hardened to magnify their judgment (to make it more) so that His grace is more glorious to the elect.
So, my answer is still the same: To magnify the judgment against them in order to maximize His glory.
Blessings to you (both)
The Archangel
God's Sovereign Choice and Man's Natural Condition
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Archangel, Jan 20, 2010.
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
I'll freely admit and readily admit that the "all" passages are a hole in the Calvinist argument. However, it is a hole that is easily filled, even though it is most likely you won't accept the explanation.
In the John passage, Jesus says that He will draw all to Himself. But it must be the case that "all" doesn't mean all without exception. There are many people in many centuries (after the Cross) who have lived and died never having heard of Jesus or the Cross. So, it cannot mean all without exception.
Here's an example. Let's say I complete a crossword puzzle. Out of joy (and amazement!) I tell my wife "I got all the words." Now, does that mean I was able to put all the known words into that crossword puzzle? Or does it mean I got all the words the clues (and therefore the puzzle) were asking for? It is, obviously, the second option.
The word in Greek is very contextually driven and doesn't always mean "all without exception."
Blessings,
The Archangel -
It seems like you are arguing that these people didn't NEED to be hardened, so God only did this to magnify his glory. But I see at least 3 major issues with that.
1. The bible tells us why God hardened them. To keep them from seeing, hearing or repenting.
2. The bible tells us what they could have done OTHERWISE.
As Paul tells us CLEARLY: "Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
3. How does it bring God more glory to confuse his people by making it appear that he needed to blind men born already totally blind? Hardening Pharaoh brought Him more Glory because it prevented Pharaoh from being convinced too soon so as to make sure more plagues were completed, thus God's Glory was revealed more fully. That makes sense.
Hardening Jews brought God more glory because it prevented them from repenting and believing before they crucified Christ and before the Gentiles were established in the church. Both of which brings God more glory. That makes sense.
But if the Jews didn't NEED to be hardened (as you seem to be arguing here) then what is the point? How does this act bring God more glory? Please explain.
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1. Man is completely blind/hardened already and thus not only will they not but in fact can not choose God or do any salvic good. (I'm with you on this point)
2. God chooses to blind/harden man who is 'already' comepletely blind/hardened so as to maginify or increase His judgment against them...
...(here you lost me like a needle in a shag rug)
My first question is, how exactly does God blind an already and completely blind man?
Second, even if a completely blind man can be blinded even more by God's causing it.. Please explain how is it judicially just for a Holy God to increase/magnify His judgment against them for what He/God actively made them to be by blinding/hardening them even more?
Just to be clear.. the above is regarding the increasing/magnifying of His judgement against them specifically for God has done to them- blinding and Hardening of them? -
Now, if the preaching of the gospel by free creatures is the only means God has chosen to use to draw the world to himself (which it may or may not be), then Christ would be expressing his desire for all people to be invited, though disobedience in a sinful and fallen world might prevent that from happening.
Like the illustration of the banquet where the master send servants into the highways and byways to invite anyone who would come, God send us, his servants into all the world to invite whosoever will come..."all without exception." This passage along with verses such as these prove that God does desire for all to hear (be drawn), repent and believe:
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
and
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
and
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Now, for those who never hear the gospel, I think there can be a very strong argument made that they will be held accountable to the level of their revelation...but start another thread if you want to discuss that because that is a big rabbit that I'd rather not chase here. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
I think "blind" is not the best word here for this discussion. But, as far as hardening goes, I think it is clear that God gives sinners what they want--sometimes. He turns them over to their sinful desires--He removes His common grace--and allows them to be worse.
How He does this? I don't know. That He does it is evident throughout scripture.
As for the justice of this--Again, it's not as if God was doing this hardening to Mother Theresa. The hardened whom God hardens further want to have hard hearts.
So, perhaps, a young Hitler was not quite the monster the Hitler of the holocaust was. But, because of God's further hardening of an already hardened heart, Hitler became the monster we all know he was. (Not intending to get into a Jewish debate here...I could have used Stalin instead).
Why do I think this? It is clear that, in Romans, Paul talks about God raising up Pharaoh for a specific purpose. It would seem that the Pharaoh of the Exodus existed to be a pinata for God. Before my Calvinist days, I used to argue that Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God hardened it. But, I was wrong about that then. God tells Moses that He (God) will harden Pharaoh's heart. Now, we know that Pharaoh was not the poster-child for righteousness, but God still hardens his heart to make an example out of him.
In the episode of the Exodus, you have an already unbelieving person (Pharaoh) being hardened by God to increase the judgment (the plagues) so that God's own glory is magnified and proclaimed throughout the world. And in all of that, according to Paul, God is absolutely justified in doing what He did. Pharaoh was created for dishonorable purposes; Moses was created for honorable purposes.
Blessings to you! (It's 3:20 AM where I'm at...I'm going to bed!). When you get the chance, sleep well, my friend.
The Archangel -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
OK...one more post before bed.
Let me note something here: "if the preaching of the gospel by free creatures is the only means God has chosen to use to draw the world to himself (which it may or may not be)" Are you kidding me? The heresy alarm is going off. Please clarify.
2 Peter 3:9--Peter is addressing the beloved (presumably Christians) and God is said to be patient towards them...not willing that any should perish...
Since he is addressing believers, Peter is rightly exhorting his listeners to be constantly and consistently examining their lives and their faith to make sure they are, in fact, saved.
This is not a general statement. The "all" is qualified by the "you [plural]" that Peter is addressing as he encourages them.
1 Timothy 2:4--In the context, Paul has exhorted his listeners to pray for kings, etc. This is astounding considering the fact that many Christians had already faced persecution and death at the hands of many rulers, not the least of which was the Roman Emperor (Nero, likely at this time).
Paul says to pray for the king is good in the sight of God who desires all to be saved. The all obviously is a reference back to the kings/rulers Paul has just exhorted the people to pray for.
So, in essence, Paul is exhorting the people to pray for the salvation of Nero, among the other oppressive kings/rulers.
Again, the "all" is qualified and does not mean "all without exception."
Romans 10:14--I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Paul is exhorting the Romans Christians to do missions. Don't be stupid hyper-Calvinists! Get out there and do the work that God has commanded you to do--make disciples.
Since the elect are unknown to everyone but God, it makes sense to go to everyone calling them to repentance and faith.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
What I don't understand is where you have God having to harden that which by nature can not be spiritually hardened any more than it already is - from birth. If it can not see or hear (spiritually) and has no ability whatsoever to even choose to believe God that He can change them, then I am at a loss for any need or choise to 'harden' even more. For me, it makes no sense. To me it is like God placing duct tape over a blind mans eyes so he can't see. It serves no purpose.
Just because a person does murder in mass doesn't necessitate a hardened heart. We can find the same hardness in the religiously minded.
Not sure if you addressed this point but could you provide me with some scripture to support this contension of hardening to magnify their judgment?
Yes, God did tell Moses He would harden Pharoahs heart, but that does not mean God was the reason Pharoah first hardened his heart. I say this becuase scripture does state specifically 'when' God began hardening and that was 'after' pharoah initial hardening. I believe to assume God's statement meant that He was going to be the intial hardener of Pharoah's heart we would see scripture detail that God did this, as it does in the other instances. It 'almost' sounds like God is become the author of Pharoah's disobedience.
ANWAY - Some of my post is off topic and not necessary something needing to be address. You guys have a pretty good thing going and I would hate to derail. I'll someone else come and do that :) -
The kings and rulers are not the qualifiers for whom the 'all men' phrase is speaking to brother. The Kings and rulers that Paul speaks to is for the purpose of 'including' them into phrase, not to exclude all others. I believe Paul directly addressed their inclusion for the very reasons which you stated. These horrific men and advisaries of the gospel were not whom one would typically think to include in our supplications and intercessions. Vs 3 qualifies his command for their inclusion into the sain't prayers and vss 4-5 expound on this reasoning for their inclusion.
As we see vs 4 conitues on with what the original intent of verse 1 was speaking to. We know this because vs 6 speaks 'back to' the 'all men', yet if we are to hold to your view then Christ was only a ransom for the kings and rulers. However we know this is not the case. Pual is maintaining his thought all the way through regarding whom the 'all men' are, and this meant all inclusively - even toward the very enemies of the church and God. -
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1. He spoke in parables so some could not understand (human means)
2. He sent them a "spirit of stupor"
3. In Pharaoh's case there were other magicians duplicating the plagues with "tricks"
4. He "blinded" them spiritually
5. He provoked them with hard teachings...(i.e. eat my flesh and drink my blood)
I point these out because God is actively hardening Israel in their rebellious condition. Paul, who was also a hardened Pharisee, was confronted in such a powerful way that it convinced him to change direction. If the so called "effectual call" (regeneration) is being employed by God why was it necessary for God to blind Paul in this way? Wasn't the point of the supernatural intervention to change Paul's will? Couldn't a simple act of regeneration have accomplished the same thing?
BTW, I know you are answering a lot of posts but please don't miss #43. I'm interested to hear your responses: http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1506688&postcount=43 -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Jews were hardened by nature of their being human.
A further hardening was given so that the sin would be greater, the judgment more substantial, and God's glory would be maximized.
If election is talked about in terms of "before the foundation of the world" then reprobation must take place in the same time-frame.
Again, a further hardening--giving them exactly what they want, according to the flesh--happened. I would argue that this is God removing His restraint against evil and allowing the hardened to pursue evil with gusto. After all, the only-evil-continually heart has to be restrained, or else all of humanity would plunge into the anarchy we see immediately before the flood.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
1. Why doesn't it describe them being in this condition from birth? Why does it speak of them BECOMING like this over time?
2. Why does Paul contrast those who are being hardened (Israel) with those who "will listen" (Gentiles)? (Acts 28:28)
3. Why does it describe what they "might" have done "otherwise?"
In your system, there is no purpose for the hardening because they would have done exactly what they did regardless of whether or not God hardened them or not. How does God kicking them while their down bring him more glory? How do you judge someone more than by sending them to eternal damnation? There is no good reason for hardening in your system. It is redundant at best and accomplishes NOTHING.
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