God's Sovreignty : This is Scary

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Terry,

If God had wanted to, could he have stopped the holocaust from happening?

Joseph Botwinick

Hi there Salamander,

Since Terry has left the conversation, perhaps you might like to take a stab at my question. What do you think?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Ok, who initiated the action to say, "Doth thy servant Job serve God for nought?" Then tell us what God told him?raying:

Did satan approach God or did God approach satan?

You "proof" just went POOF!

raise: :Fish: raise:

Who gave Satan permission? Did God violate his own will with that permission. Look! I think his proof just reappeared.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Hi there Salamander,

Since Terry has left the conversation, perhaps you might like to take a stab at my question. What do you think?

Joseph Botwinick

I have not left the conversation, I just had things to do other than chat on the Internet, you know, like making a living. (BTW, this is not intended as a put-down. I realize that, as a school teacher, you work much harder than most people think.)

Sure, God could have prevented the Holocaust, but I believe that God has allowed man free will because we rebelled against His will in the garden, and He has allowed man to do some horrific things. I do not, however, believe that this is what God wanted to happen.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I have not left the conversation, I just had things to do other than chat on the Internet, you know, like making a living. (BTW, this is not intended as a put-down. I realize that, as a school teacher, you work much harder than most people think.)

Sure, God could have prevented the Holocaust, but I believe that God has allowed man free will because we rebelled against His will in the garden, and He has allowed man to do some horrific things. I do not, however, believe that this is what God wanted to happen.

Did God, therefore, violate his own will by allowing it to happen?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Did God, therefore, violate his own will by allowing it to happen?

Joseph Botwinick

No. Still, I do not believe this was what God would want to have happen. Man has free will and God does all that.

Since you are good at asking questions, how about answering one?

Do you think God wants these atrocities to happen?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

No. Still, I do not believe this was what God would want to have happen. Man has free will and God does all that.

Since you are good at asking questions, how about answering one?

Do you think God wants these atrocities to happen?

I believe that God had a plan and a purpose for good to come out of these atrocities. Corrie Ten Boom leading Nazi Soldiers to the Lord could have been part of that plan. I also believe that if God didn't want it to happen that he could have stopped it just as he restricted the amount of evil that Satan could inflict on Job.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Terry_Herrington]

I believe that God had a plan and a purpose for good to come out of these atrocities. Corrie Ten Boom leading Nazi Soldiers to the Lord could have been part of that plan. I also believe that if God didn't want it to happen that he could have stopped it just as he restricted the amount of evil that Satan could inflict on Job.

Joseph Botwinick

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

I agree!

Very well put!

I knew we could agree on some things.

 

[Timtoolman]

Salamander. Could lucifer have chosen to not rebel? If so, then God is not all knowing huh? God would have had something to learn. I submit that in God's providence, He causes all things to happen for the good of those who love Him, those who are called according to His purpose.

God is in control of all things but you have made him the CAUSE of sin. "Let no man say he is tempted of God."

 

[Timtoolman]

BTW Joseph didn't say that God advocates evil - he said He allows it. There is a difference.

Thats the picture.

 

[reformedbeliever]

God is in control of all things but you have made him the CAUSE of sin. "Let no man say he is tempted of God."

How did I make Him the cause of sin? By quoting scripture. If anyone has made Him the cause of sin it is in your own mind. Do you put words in my mouth Timtoolman. Just because of your hatred for Sovereign grace... you do not have to attack the person who simply brings the message of God. Its His words, not mine. Its His opinion, not mine. If it was up to me ... every last person who ever existed would be saved... but my form of justice is not perfect like His. I don't like evil either. However, we have an all powerful God, who happens to be omnibenevolent. The problem of evil has always been just that... a problem for those who believe in the inerrancy of scripture. Whether calvinist or arminian... we have a problem with God being all powerful and all good, but yet evil exists. I have to use theodicy as explained in the word of God to explain it. Let the Word of God be true and men liars. Its His word, not mine. Romans 8:28. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.

 

[Salamander]

Who gave Satan permission? Did God violate his own will with that permission. Look! I think his proof just reappeared.

Joseph Botwinick

Did God stop the Holocaust? Did God stop satan from joining the sons of God as they went to present themselves before the Lord?

God stated that all Job had was within satan's power, but God told satan that Job's life was in God's hands, not satan's.

Basic theology 101

God didn't stop the Holocaust becuase of His purpose to draw Israel closer to im, but God did stop the Holocaust by the hands of Allies. The Allies knew nothing of the Holocaust until they had stopped it. God knew about it, allowed it, then stopped it by the Allies who knew nothing about it until they invaded Germany as a direct result of the Invasion of Normandy.

God neither initiated the Holocaust, nor caused it, but God has used it to draw His elect closer to him in the end result.

Did God reprove satan by his servant Job? The passage isn't about power or whose hand that power is in, but is all about dedication to God no matter what the circumstances.

What if Job had committed suicide?

 

[J.D.]

Yes, but that's not the whole picture. While God does not advocate evil, he does allow it, and that which he allows he wills - for his own purpose and glory. If the evil he allows did not suite his purpose, he would not allow it to begin with.

 

[Salamander]

I believe that God had a plan and a purpose for good to come out of these atrocities. Corrie Ten Boom leading Nazi Soldiers to the Lord could have been part of that plan. I also believe that if God didn't want it to happen that he could have stopped it just as he restricted the amount of evil that Satan could inflict on Job.

Joseph Botwinick

Nope, I answered your statement already, God didn't limit the amount of evil directed towards Job. The power to take Job's life was NEVER in satan's power. Man's life is either in God's hands or not. Care to expand that somehow it isn't?raying:

raise: :Fish: raise:

 

[Salamander]

Yes, but that's not the whole picture. While God does not advocate evil, he does allow it, and that which he allows he wills - for his own purpose and glory. If the evil he allows did not suite his purpose, he would not allow it to begin with.

Oh, so He holds his word above his very name, but many perversions of his word are in print today. You say God willed that Ishmael be a warring tribe and kill the elect because you say that God willed that also muhammad is also God?

Something wrong with your subjective theology, you left God out of the picture.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Nope, I answered your statement already, God didn't limit the amount of evil directed towards Job. The power to take Job's life was NEVER in satan's power. Man's life is either in God's hands or not. Care to expand that somehow it isn't?raying:

raise: :Fish: raise:

Your argument is illogical. If Satan could not have taken Job's life, then tell me why God would even bother mentioning it to Satan and adding that restriction. Also, please tell me who killed Job's kids.

Thanks,

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Basic theology 101

God didn't stop the Holocaust becuase of His purpose to draw Israel closer to im, but God did stop the Holocaust by the hands of Allies. The Allies knew nothing of the Holocaust until they had stopped it. God knew about it, allowed it, then stopped it by the Allies who knew nothing about it until they invaded Germany as a direct result of the Invasion of Normandy.

Before you start with theology 101, you might want to take a look at history 101 if you believe the allies knew nothing about the Holocaust until after they stopped it. Charles Lindberg certainly knew something of what was happening as he mentioned it in his speech in Des Moines, Iowa.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Yes, but that's not the whole picture. While God does not advocate evil, he does allow it, and that which he allows he wills - for his own purpose and glory. If the evil he allows did not suite his purpose, he would not allow it to begin with.

This is exactly correct, but you will never convince Salamander because he doesn't believe in an omnipotent God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Tom Butler]

Peter, Acts 2:23, Day of Pentecost: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands ye have crucified and slain..."

Was Jesus crucified and slain because of God's determinate counsel? So says Peter.

Did God know ahead of time it was going to happen? Of course.

Did God know that those who would crucify and slay Jesus would be evil men? Yes, of course.

Was it an exercise of God's determinate counsel that wicked hands would do the evil? So says Paul. Not just allowed it--but brought the power to bear that made it so.

Can God be sovereign and not sovereign at the same time? Can he be completely sovereign in some matters, but partially sovereign in others, and still be omnipotent?

If God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, can he at cherry pick those instances when he won't be?

The answers to these questions will determine how one views the relationship among God, Job and Satan.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I will take those questions one step further, Tom:

Can God be God if he is not omnipotent? IOW, if you deny his omnipotence, do you risk denying Gid himself?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Karen]

Joseph and Tom,
Yes, God is omnipotent. Open theism is wrong. I am NOT saying those who disagree with you are open theists.
But that is one of the strawmen you hold out in the background against your opponents.

The trouble many people have with your arguments is that you are so quick to uphold God's sovereignty and power, that you don't seem to see how you can be perceived as saying that God actively promotes evil.

Sure, that is a strawman too. But you SEEM sometimes more concerned about defending God's sovereignty than His holiness. They are both true.

Karen