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Featured God's word [and] Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hermeneut7, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. Hermeneut7

    Hermeneut7 Member
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    The following Scriptures are why I left [Edited] Dispensationalism [Edited]
    ("Church" is not a biblical word, it is an eccesiastical word. The Scripture is "assembly" or "congregation")

    Promises made to Israel have been totally, completely fulfilled:
    Josh. 21:43-45; 23:14-16; Neh. 9:22-25; 2 Chron. 9:26; 1 Kgs 4:20,21 compared to Gen. 15:18

    The Jewish theocracy has been brought to an end:
    Matt. 21:43; Luke 20:16; John 4:21,23

    God's people are only one people:
    Rom. 10:12,13; 2:28,29; Eph.2:15,16; Col. 3:11; 1 Cor.12:13; Gal.3:7-9; Phil.3:3

    The Congregation of Christ (New Covenant believers) is true Israel continued:
    1 Pet. 2:9,10 (see Ex 19:6; Dt. 7:6; Isa. 61:6); Gal. 6:15,16; Heb. 12:18, 22-24
    (The Assembly of Christ did not replace Israel, it is Israel continued.)

    OT Prophecies fulfilled in the New Covenant, Congregation of Christ:
    Joel 2:28 >> Acts 2:16,17
    2 Sam 7:12 & Psa.132.11 >> Acts 2:30,21
    Zech.12:9,10 >> John 19:36,37
    Amos 9:11,12 >> Acts 15:13-16
    Jer. 31:31,33 >> Heb. 8:1, 4, 6-8
    Mal. 4:5,6 >> Lk 1:17; Matt. 11:13, 14
    Acts 3:24, 25
    1 Pet. 1:10-12

    The kingdom arrived in the 1st century, exists now:
    Matt.4:17/Mk 1:15; Matt. 12:28; 16:28; Lk 11:20; 17:20,21; Col. 1:13

    Christ is King now:
    John 12:14-16; 1:49; Matt. 2:2; Lk 1:32,33; Acts 1:5; 2:30,31; 1 Tim. 6:15

    Christ reigns now:
    1 Pet. 3:22; Heb. 2:8; Phil. 2:9, 10; Eph. 1:20,21; Matt. 28:18

    Christians are new creation and reign now:
    Rom. 5:17; 8:17; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:6

    Satan is bound now:
    Matt. 12:28,29; Lk 10:17, 18; John 12:27, 31; 16:11; Col. 2:14,15; Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8

    The 1000 years of Revelation 20 is symbolic as in:
    Psa. 50:10; 91:7; 105:8; Isa 30:17; 60:22
    (KJV "signified" in Rev.1:1 means "symbolized" as John used it: John 12:33; 18:32; 21:19)

    There is one general resurrection on "the last day":
    John 6:39,40, 44, 54; 5:28,29; 11:24; Acts 24:15; 17:31,32

    There is one general judgment, also on "the last day":
    John 12:48; 2 Pet. 2:9; 3:7; 1 John 4:17; Rev. 20:12-15

    Kingdom of God and Kingdom of heaven refer to the same thing:
    Matt. 19:23,24... then the following parallels from the synoptic gospels:
    Matt. 4:;17, 23 >> Mk 1:14, 15
    Matt. 5:3 >> Lk 6:20
    Matt. 8:11, 12 >> Lk 13:28,29
    Matt. 13:11 >> Mk 4:11

    Time of the second coming of Christ unknown, no signs given:
    Matt. 24:36,44; Acts 1:7; 1 Thess. 5:1, 2
    Rev. 16:15 (v15 appears to be a parenthesis between v14 & 16)

    Examples of symbolic, apocalyptic language in the OT:
    God in clouds - Isa. 19:1; Nah. 1:3; Psa. 104:3
    Sky, sun, moon, stars - Isa. 13:1, 10, 19, 20; 34:4, 5; Eze. 32:2, 7, 8
    Hail, fire, brimesone - Ex. 9:18; Psa. 18:12, 13; Isa. 28:1,2
    Earthquakes - 2 Sam. 22:1, 7-16
    Smokes forever - Isa 24:5, 10
    Water into blood - Ex. 4:9; 7:17
    Darkness - Ex. 10:21; Dt. 4:11
    Famine & pestilence - Jer. 14:12
    A 'seal' - Esth. 8:8; 2 Tim. 2:19
    A 'mark' - Jer. 2:22

    I will discuss sane questions or challenges, only.
     
    #1 Hermeneut7, Aug 7, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2017
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  2. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    I'm curious...
    The 1,000 years are symbolic of what?

    And I'm trying to square that with the idea that there's one General Resurrection only, plus the idea that "the rest of the dead were not raised until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

    So part a resurrection, and then a symbol, and then the rest of the resurrection, and it's all one resurrection?
     
  3. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    I'm curious how you treat this sampling of mentions of the Kingdom, especially compared to your statements that all the promises to Israel have already been fulfilled

    Matthew 3:2
    “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

    Matthew 12:28
    But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Matthew 8:11
    I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;

    Matthew 13:41
    The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

    Acts 1:6
    So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”
     
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    When you post something sane and unarrogant I will discuss questions and challenges as well.
     
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    RM...will discuss nothing...he will just call you arrogant a few times, then vanish:Cautious
     
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  6. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    There are plenty of dispensationalists that aren't Zionists, if you hate jews.
     
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  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Wow, only six posts in and the smear is made. Did Christ hate Jews?:

    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

    9 I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Rev 2

    9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Rev 3

    Did Paul hate Jews?:

    2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
    3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

    14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
    15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
    16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. 1 Thess 2

    Did James hate Jews?:

    1 Come now, ye rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you.
    2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.
    3 Your gold and your silver are rusted; and their rust shall be for a testimony against you, and shall eat your flesh as fire. Ye have laid up your treasure in the last days.
    4 Behold, the hire of the laborers who mowed your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
    5 Ye have lived delicately on the earth, and taken your pleasure; ye have nourished your hearts in a day of slaughter.
    6 Ye have condemned, ye have killed the righteous one; he doth not resist you.
    7 Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain.
    8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
    9 Murmur not, brethren, one against another, that ye be not judged: behold, the judge standeth before the doors. Ja 5
     
    #7 kyredneck, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
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  8. Hermeneut7

    Hermeneut7 Member
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    James, thanks for giving me a serious question and I struggled for many years on this passage and must say my viewpoint is theoretical. When the great Puritan Matthew Poole says on this: " For my own part, I shall freely confess that I do not understand this and the two next verses, nor shall I be positive as to any sense of them: for the spiritual resurrection, as to the martyrs, it was long since past, or else they had died in their sins" I hold to the best understanding I can muster. You can read Poole's full comment here: Revelation 20 Commentary - English Annotations on the Holy Bible

    I approach the symbolism of Revelation understanding that the literal, more clear passages of Scripture must form the structure around which the symbols must fit. I take note that it is "the souls of them" on the thrones, not bodies. I also notice that when thrones are mentioned in the Revelation, they are in heaven. I also notice that this is referred to as "the first resurrection", but that is not contrasted with a second resurrection, but with "a second death", v6. For these reasons I can't believe this speaks of a bodily resurrection after which the thrones are on earth for 1000 years. The persons are those beheaded for the witness of Jesus, so they are not just Christians in general. I believe these persons are those mentioned in Rev. 6:9-11.

    I am convinced that the scholars are correct that Revelation was written prior to 70AD. The book gives its time frame, Rv.1:1 "to show his servants1 what must soon take place", Rv.1:3 " keep what is written in it; for the time is near." and it is repeated for emphasis at the end, Rv.22:6 " to show his servants what must soon take place" and Rv.22:10 "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near". There is no way I can view chapters prior to 20 to be our future with those timings given.

    As to what the 1000 years represent, I believe the following is Scriptural: Rv.20:2 shows the 1000 years begin with the binding of Satan. Go back to my notes and look at the verses of when Satan was bound and it is at Christ's first advent. Therefore, I am convinced in my mind that the 1000 represents the period between the first and second advents of Christ. The problem text you mention in v5 is indeed difficult, I admit that. I will give you what my favorite commentary has on it, by David Scott Clark:

    "In verse five we find the expression, "But the rest of the dead lived not (again) until the thousand years were finished." This expression is not found in some manuscripts notably the Vatican and Syriac. But assuming that it is a genuine part of our text it will come up for some reference as we proceed. These six verses have been the subject of much debate in the controversies over this book. We will notice a few variant views.
    1st. The premillennial view assumes that the nineteenth chapter describes the second coming of Christ and that these six verses teach that all the righteous dead will be resurrected and live on the earth during the thousand years, and the wicked dead will not be resurrected till the thousand years are ended. Then at the end of the postmillennial period they will be resurrected and brought to judgment as described in the end of this chapter which is a judgment of the wicked only according to the premillennialist. The difficulties in this view are these:
    (a) It contradicts everything taught elsewhere in the Bible about the resurrection and the judgment. It contradicts Christ's repeated declarations that the resurrection is at the last day, and the judgment of the righteous at the last day. It contradicts Christ's teaching in Joh 5:28 that the just and unjust are raised at the same time, one resurrection for all that are in their graves.
    It contradicts the teaching of Christ in Mat 25:31 that when Christ comes then will ensue the general judgment and the assignment of destiny to the righteous and wicked.
    It contradicts the closing part of this twentieth chapter where we see all the dead, small and great, coming from their graves and from the bottom of the sea and standing before God in one general judgment.
    (b) It makes this obscure passage a key to interpret the plain portions elsewhere, whereas the true rule is that the obscure must be interpreted by the obvious.
    (c) This view is supposed to be strengthened by the statement: "The rest of the dead lived not again till the thousand years were finished." But even the premillennialist would not be ready to admit that the wicked dead were actually resurrected at the end of the thousand years, and actually "lived" during the post-millennial period, which his literal interpretation would seem to require.
    (d) Besides, the premillennial view makes the resurrection precede the "Tribulation," and therefore should show us the resurrection at the beginning of the fourth chapter (and not a line of it is there) instead of at the beginning of the twentieth chapter.
    If this is a living of resurrected saints on earth, what becomes of them at the end of the thousand years? Do they die again? or ascend again? To this, premillennialism has no answer.
    Besides if the end of the chapter describes only the resurrection and judgment of the wicked, what provision is made for the resurrection of all the righteous who were born and lived in the millennial and post-millennial periods? And for this also premillennialism has no answer.
    These difficulties seem fatal to the premillennial view.
    2nd. Another view held by Saint Augustine, by Dr. David Brown, a great authority on the subject, and by Dr. A. H. Strong, the great theologian of the Baptist church, is to the effect that the reigning saints are the triumphant church on earth in the millennial period.
    The Christian cause or body that was smitten with the sword and burned in the persecutor's fire, will rise to triumph and domination in the millennial days. That is the resurrection, it is the resurrection of the cause, or party or church of Christ. It will rise to power and rule the world while the Satan party or serpent party will be overcome. But when the thousand years are finished that Satan-party will rise again to live and fight and persecute the church in the post-millennial period as this chapter depicts.
    This view brings out the antithesis expressed in these verses. The saint-party rose and lived, the serpent-party also rose and lived. No bodily resurrection in either case; that occurs at the end when the dead small and great stand before God.
    3rd. The view honored by the names of Prof. C. A. Briggs and Prof. B. B, Warfield is that this vision shows the saints and martyrs in heaven. It was meant to show that the redeemed are in heaven safe from all the persecutions that raged below, and that John wrote this to encourage the church facing the persecution of that and subsequent times. It would nerve them to faithfulness to see the glory of the martyr when the persecutor's sword had done its worst. It was not meant to show the raising of bodies, but the raising of souls to their heavenly home. This is the first resurrection, the entrance upon heavenly joys, and the second resurrection is the bodily resurrection of all the dead at the end of the world.

    It should not pass without notice that the heavenly scene reflects the earthly. The reason why the saints rejoiced in heaven was because the church on earth was triumphant. They were judged and avenged by the destruction of the persecutors and the binding of Satan, but that meant that the church on earth was regnant. If the millennium means anything it means the triumph of Christ's cause on earth. Thus Christ's cause and people were dominant during the thousand years, and Satan's allies were subdued till the thousand years were ended, and after that they rose to power again. This may express the antithesis between the saints that lived and reigned and the rest that lived not till the thousand years were finished, and then they did live and rose to their old time power and persecution."

    I believe chapters 4-11 detail the lead up to 70AD, and chapters 12-19 show events leading up to the overthrow of Rome. Sorry for such a long answer, but I felt you were sincere and it deserved my time in an answer. Thanks!
     
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  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Ah yes once again.

    Many of us BB "old-timers" have been down this path of #NeverDispie

    One can save time by scanning the archives to see the back and forth volleys of missiles from both camps.

    HankD
     
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  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    H7, you hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head.

    Our differences lie in which side of the hermeneutical pendulum we gravitate towards in our scriptural interpretation of 'eschatology". Literal or spiritual.

    To me this field of study (our differences) is a total fascination.

    HankD
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I guess when Paul stated that he would suffer Hell to have his fellow jews saved, he did not get the memo?
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ???
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You claimed God has no more dealings with the Jews, and yet paul was willing to go to Hell to see israel saved!
     
  14. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    what?

    I was just joking. He said dispensationalism was Christian Zionism (implying it was a bad thing) and I was saying that not all dispensationalists are zionists. Steven Anderson is a dispie but hates jews.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He thinks that to support Israel means you must condemn all arab and Muslims and others to getting blown up or something!
     
  16. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I would ask but one thing. Except for the ones to whom God has called out of this world and has given the promise of the Holy Spirit, are not the peoples and nations of this world under the deception of the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan?

    And this doesn't even count those who assume they have the Holy Spirit, the ones who might say, "Lord, Lord". Are they also deceived by the great dragon?

    What is the purpose of the millennium kingdom?

    For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's (the first resurrection) at his coming. 1 Cor 15:21-23
    Christ, they that are Christ's, what do they do and why?
    Acts 15:16,17 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: --- WHY? --- That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

    Who are they seeking? The Lord and those called by his name, those ruling with him, having been resurrected, from the dead.

    And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. Luke 19:15-17 --- I will return. --- Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. ----- Cometh isn't there. Then the end of what? The rest of the dead are resurrected.
     
  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    This is Steve Anderson...

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Hermeneut7

    Hermeneut7 Member
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    James, the promises to Israel I referenced were about the statements in Joshua and keyed this back to Gen. 15:18, speaking of the land promised to Israel. Scripture says it was fulfilled, nothing failed. Matt. 3:2, 12:28, 8:11 seem clear enough, the kingdom of God had come at the first advent, like a mustard seed, it started out small. In Acts 1:6, Christ refused to answer the question, so in light of 1 Cor. 4:6, I'll not read into it more than what is stated. But, your reference to Matt. 13:41 I find very interesting and I'll quote it more fully:

    "He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt 13:37-42, NRSV)

    I do not see a "rapture" of the saints being removed here, I see the evildoers are "raptured" here and removed from the kingdom.
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    RE The wheat and the weeds

    Matthew 13
    30 Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'

    The weeds are bound in the field, then the wheat is gathered into HIS barn.

    Noah and Lot

    Luke 17
    26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man.
    27 They were eating and drinking, and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them.
    28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building,
    29 but on the day that Lot left Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed all of them
    30 -- it will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

    In both cases - Noah and Lot, the people of God were removed before judgement came.

    HankD
     
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  20. Covenanter

    Covenanter Active Member
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    Features of the "millennium" include:
    1. The binding of Satan, so the nations are not deceived;
    2. The souls of the martyrs live & reign as priests in the first resurrection;
    3. The unbelieving dead have no part in the first resurrection;
    4. Satan will be unbound & deceive the nations, leading a rebellion that is defeated without a battle by fire from heaven;
    5. The rebellion ends in the same way as the Revelation 19 rebellion, both being described in the same terms as the Gog/Magog prophecy;
    6. The resurrection & final judgment follows the Millennium.

    1. Christ bound Satan at Calvary, & commissioned his Apostles to take the Gospel to the nations, according to the first promise to Abram;
    2. The status of believers as kings & priests is described in Revelation 1. Jesus speaks of conversion as a (spiritual) resurrection - passing from death to life, & contrasts it with the final resurrection for judgement;
    3. The unbelievers have no part in conversion, nor spiritual resurrection;
    4. It is feasible that God allows this final rebellion just as he allowed the Canaanites, & the Sodomites, & this generation to fill up their sins prior to judgment;
    5. Fire & death precede the Final coming of Christ;
    6. Jesus returns to raise & judge the dead.

    And the next event after the present millennium is the NH&NE - no fanciful eschatological scheme.



     
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