Romans 8:23, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Also 1 John 3:2.
Good In Bad People?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, May 20, 2022.
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Hebrews and Peter tells us we have been given an inheritance as children of God. This idea of adoption is not just from Paul. -
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Romans 8:15,23-24,29-30
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
You also ignore Ephesians 1 as well as Hebrews 9 and 1 Peter 1 and 2. But kudos to you for mishandling Romans 8:23 because you want it to mean something else. -
Roman 8:15, ". . . For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. . . ." First reference.
Romans 8:23 the defining second reference.
Romans 9:4, to whom the promise pertaines. Third reference.
Galatians 4:5 gives the reason. The fourth reference.
Ephesians 1:5, ". . . Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . ." Romans 8:29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, . . ." 1 John 3:2, ". . . now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . . " -
SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
I do not see any indication from the text of Scripture that we are adopted BEFORE our conversion. Chosen to be adopted, yes, but not already adopted.
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SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
Can you get this?:Geek -
I will use human adoption as an example. The adoption process takes place, legally, far before the actual picking up of the child to bring the child home. When, therefore, is the child adopted? Is it at the point s/he is snatched up in their parents arms or is it far before that time when the papers are signed?
Here is where the covenant comes into play.
When Jesus died, Christ's will was read and every adopted child received there inheritance (Hebrews 9:15-17). We see this same thing in 1 Peter 1:3-5 where we have received an inheritance, yet we wait for it.
Our adoption has already taken place, yet the entire fulfillment, from our perspective, has not yet taken place. Therefore, we live by faith and we endure the fiery trials as aliens in a foreign land. -
Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
Now, do I believe all of the elect will be adopted before they leave this world? Absolutely. But do I believe that they are already adopted when they are born? No I do not. -
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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You know you weren't saved until Christ drew you to Him. No amount of commentary will change that fact. The only thing that can change is whether you will admit it or continue to preserve the view you want to hold onto.
I understand that, Austin.
Scripture makes it clear that there was a day in your temporal life when the Comforter convicted you of sin, made you understand the reality of your sin, Christ's righteousness, and your eternal destiny. You didn't say, "Glad you're back, Lord," you said "Lord save me, a sinner!"
And He did. That day you received eternal life because you were baptized into Christ for the first time in all of Eternity. You received the eternal indwelling of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
That God foreknew you doesn't change that. That you are a member of the elect doesn't change the fact you were conceived and born outside of relationship with and to God.
Part of me is glad I wasn't. I wasn't subject to indoctrination that often accompanies such an upbringing. And I am not saying you are indoctrinated due to your upbringing, just stating that I am glad I went through what I did and experienced what I did, because there are those I can minister to (drug addicts and alcoholics) that those who have no experience with addiction and alcoholism cannot.
Still, I often wonder how things would have been if I had not grown up the way I did. And I can still see that "upbringing" having an impact on my life now.
While I agree we must consider both an eternal perspective of God and the temporal perspective we have, we can answer this very simple question with a yes or a no and be done with it
I say this because this is what Scripture teaches:
Romans 8:14-16 King James Version
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Scripture defines the "Spirit" of v.15 as the Spirit of God. We know that this is a reference to "the Spirit that was sent down from Heaven."
He is the Spirit associated with our adoption, and He was not sent during Old Testament Eras and Ages. He could not come until Christ returned to Heaven (John 16:7-9)
Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
The promise of adoption was revealed to Israel. They are still awaiting that adoption because they have rejected He Who came unto His Own. The promises were given unto them specifically, and Gentile Inclusion makes the promises available to all families of the earth, because the promises precede the Covenant of Law and the creation of this witness people who were a picture of the Church (just as animal sacrifice was a picture of Christ's death).
Galatians 4:4-6
King James Version
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
There is a specific time when God sent His Son to redeem us from the Law that we might receive the adoption of sons. Hence no man was adopted prior to God manifesting in the flesh (John 1:11-13).
We see here that 1) God sent His Son at the appropriate time, 2) men were redeemed from the Law, 3) men received the adoption of/as sons, and 4) we received the Spirit of Christ when/while we were adopted.
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Being predestinated to adoption itself shows that the Adoption takes place at a future time from when the promise was given.
It is through Jesus Christ, Who also has a beginning in time in the Body that God created to take up residence in, that He might die in our stead. The Son of God is Eternal God, the Creator. But Jesus Christ is the Messiah that was prophesied to come and save Man from his sin.
So too, you have not been eternally redeemed from eternity past, but it was that day you were eternally redeemed in the temporal that you become a son of God:
John 1:11-13 King James Version
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
We can't make the eternal and temporal perspectives identical, particularly when God went through the trouble of teaching us why we should not in His Word.
God bless. -
Already, not yet.
We live with this tension and seeming paradox. -
SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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