Have Southern Baptists Strayed?

[dianetavegia]

Some things get better with age...

 

[Daniel David]

We don't want everything to be returned to the SBC roots. Remember, the SBC had "churches" who advocated slavery. That isn't something we want.

The SBC was also largely amillenial/postmillenial. What is so interesting is the rise of premillenial theology (not just dispensational) that has helped drive the movement.

 

[dianetavegia]

So you just want us to change enough that we're just like you?

If it isn't broke, don't fix it. If someone isn't happy with the SBC, let them move their memberships.

 

[Daniel David]

Diane, it was always Calvinistic. It was the moderates who went all arminian. That is what still needs to be fixed.

 

[dianetavegia]

There you go again. Putting labels on us that do NOT fit!

Daniel David, I'm telling your right now that if you are not a 5 point Calvinist, you are NOT a Calvinist.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
We don't want everything to be returned to the SBC roots. Remember, the SBC had "churches" who advocated slavery. That isn't something we want.

The SBC was also largely amillenial/postmillenial. What is so interesting is the rise of premillenial theology (not just dispensational) that has helped drive the movement.

DD

Surely you know that the roots I was talking about had nothing to do with slavery but the subject of this forum: Have Southern Baptist Strayed relative to the 4 points of doctrine I raised? I trust you were not:sleeping:. Are you implying I am racist in a backhanded way. Not what one would expect from a fellow

.

Just what movement has "the rise of premillenial theology (not just dispensational)" helped drive?

 

[Phillip]

In my opinion, it is all definitions. If you look at Calvanism, you have to say, well, yes, I believe that part, and yes, I have to accept that part too, on and on.

There are two big issues involved with Calvanism here:

The first, is: Can man do anything about his own salvation without God? Can a man accept the Lord without being called of the Holy Spirit?

The second is, election. Election simply means that since God is Omnipotent, that He knows everything. He knows who will live for eternity and who will be punished for eternity. It was still man's will when offered the chance by God. Obviously, many people on this earth were not offered the chance. This is the reason for missions. . . and why Calvanism itself requires missionaries regardless of the interpretation of "election". God is all knowing, and all powerful and lives outside of our limited time and space. Therefore, he sees and knows what and who, before we do. It is simple as that.

Those are the two big issues and the second one is often confused with God saying (I pick you, you and you and the rest of you go to hell.)

At least that is my view of the situation.

 

[Daniel David]

Actually Diane, the Scriptures present the following as objective truth:

1. Total depravity of man
2. Unconditional election by God of man
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perseverance of the saints
6. Everything that happens will bring God the most glory

Note that I did not call you a moderate. I was letting you know who is responsible for the shift.

Btw, an arminian believes he makes the final decision about salvation. This is what you believe. You are arminian.

 

[dianetavegia]

Daniel David.... again, with the labels! An Arminian believes a lot more than just that we're given free will to chose or reject what Christ did for us on Calvary.

It's all or nothing and I'm neither. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop telling me I'm an Arminian.

 

[Daniel David]

Oldreg, I wasn't implying you were rascist at all. Sorry for the confusion. I was just pointing out which part of the convention needs to be taken back to its roots.

Premillenial theology is the natural reading of the text. You might not be pretrib, but that is no excuse for the prositution of the texts relating to the end of time.

Inerrancy and premillenialism have to be the two biggest punches the resurgence has.

I called a prof at Southern (who will remain nameless) and we talked about the different end times views among the staff. Mohler is historic premill. The guy did say that non-premills are kind of quiet about it. He implied that the amill view was looked down on. I encouraged him to keep up the good work.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Phillip:


The second is, election. Election simply means that since God is Omnipotent, that He knows everything. He knows who will live for eternity and who will be punished for eternity. It was still man's will when offered the chance by God. Obviously, many people on this earth were not offered the chance. This is the reason for missions. . . and why Calvanism itself requires missionaries regardless of the interpretation of "election". God is all knowing, and all powerful and lives outside of our limited time and space. Therefore, he sees and knows what and who, before we do. It is simple as that.

At least that is my view of the situation.

Election is defined by the following Scripture. Not quite what you state.

Ephesians 1:3-7
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[Daniel David]

Diane, you can call yourself whatever you want. Your theology is arminian.

 

[gb93433]

I'd rather be a Christian than a calvinist. I follow Jesus not Calvin. Calvin was wrong and he admitted that should one take his points too far they would go off the deeep end. But Jesus said quite the opposite.

I have found that the majority of those who call themselves calvinists have actually never read Calvin's Institutes nor his commentaries. They are often more dogmatic than Calvin himself.

How can one claim to be a Christian and a calvinist at the same time? They are opposed to one another. No one can serve two masters. That is like saying, "I follow Paul, I follow Cephas and I follow Jesus." Impossibility!

 

[Daniel David]

Phillip, if God 'elects' based on our response, how could that rightly be called 'election'? You make it seem like it is us who 'elect' God.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Diane, you can call yourself whatever you want. Your theology is arminian.

What kind of authority do you speak from?

Have you actually read any books by James Arminius?

 

[Daniel David]

gb93433, it is better to say such things in private so as to not be publicly embarrassed.

Calvinists use that term because the doctrines of grace were summarized by him. 'Calvinist' simply refers to one who believes in sovereign grace.

Personally, I think the guy was whacked about a great many things. However, he didn't invent the theological concepts, God did. Therefore, calling myself a christian or a calvinist means the same thing.

You might think I am joking.

 

[trailblazer]

EEK! My head is spinning! Arminian...Election...predestination...Calvinist...1 point Calvinist...2 point Calvinist...3 point Calvinist....5 point Calvinist...dispensationalist...Presbyterian...Catholic...Lutheran...WHEW! I sure hope the Good Lord has a lot of spare rooms up in the New Jerusalem 'cause it doesn't seem like we're all gonna wanna stay in the same room very long let alone for eternity!

 

[Daniel David]

Again gb, show a little theological understanding please. Arminian is not relegated to everything Arminius said. I don't know why I waste my time with liberals.

 

[gb93433]

Of course everyone can see what happened to the Calvin's church of today.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Oldreg, You might not be pretrib, but that is no excuse for the prositution of the texts relating to the end of time.

Mohler is historic premill.

DD
Surely you are not accusing the Old Saints of the Southern Baptist Church of prostituting the text of Scripture?

Didn't know Mohler was historic premillennial. While I would disagree with him at least he is not dispensational.