Have Southern Baptists Strayed?

Joseph I don't question God at all. I believe Job's problem was one of perception. God did not tempt Job to sin, God did not sin against Job. He still does not do that toward us. Because something happens in my life that does not seem good to me that does not mean God is tempting me or sinning against me, that would be impossible.

God is not the author of sin or evil. James says that every good and perfect gift comes to us by God, in whom there is no varience of turning.

Bro Tony

 

If this is so this shoots a hole in those calvinist who say some are elect to salvation and some are elect to damnation.

Bro Tony

 

Job 1:10-12

 

So you are saying that God had created some who are not "elect of God" and therefore damned to hell, with no hope of salvation? Was Christ's death on the cross not enough to pay for their sins?

Did God create Adam and Eve to sin in the garden and bring sin into the world, or did they have a "free will" and chose themselves to disobey God and sin?

I believe those who accept God's free gift of salvation become part of the elect, and those who in their "free will" reject the Holy Spirit and God's free gift of salvation don't become part of the elect. I believe that God already knows who will choose and who will reject, but he makes the same offer to everyone.

I also believe that God in his awseome forekowledge knows what would have happened had Adam and Eve chose to obed God and not sin.

 

Your point? How does this speak different from what I said?

Bro Tony

 

So you are saying that God had created some who are not "elect of God" and therefore damned to hell, with no hope of salvation? Was Christ's death on the cross not enough to pay for their sins?</font>[/QUOTE]JGrubbs,

Are you a universalist? What about all the people who have died without Jesus so far? Was Christ's death on the cross enough to pay for their sins? It would seem to me that if you have a problem with the doctrine of the elect, then your problem is with the sovereign God and his word (the Bible), not with me.

I believe those who accept God's free gift of salvation become part of the elect, and those who in their "free will" reject the Holy Spirit and God's free gift of salvation don't become part of the elect. I believe that God already knows who will choose and who will reject, but he makes the same offer to everyone.

I also believe that God in his awseome forekowledge knows what would have happened had Adam and Eve chose to obed God and not sin. [/QUOTE]

Would you please share with us your salvation experience? I wonder who you are counting on for your salvation: your free will choice, or a sovereign God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Your point? How does this speak different from what I said?

Bro Tony </font>[/QUOTE]Who sent Satan to Job and for what purpose?

Joseph Botwinick

 

So you are saying that God had created some who are not "elect of God" and therefore damned to hell, with no hope of salvation? Was Christ's death on the cross not enough to pay for their sins?</font>[/QUOTE]JGrubbs,

Are you a universalist? What about all the people who have died without Jesus so far? Was Christ's death on the cross enough to pay for their sins? It would seem to me that if you have a problem with the doctrine of the elect, then your problem is with the sovereign God and his word (the Bible), not with me.

I believe those who accept God's free gift of salvation become part of the elect, and those who in their "free will" reject the Holy Spirit and God's free gift of salvation don't become part of the elect. I believe that God already knows who will choose and who will reject, but he makes the same offer to everyone.

I also believe that God in his awseome forekowledge knows what would have happened had Adam and Eve chose to obed God and not sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Would you please share with us your salvation experience? I wonder who you are counting on for your salvation: your free will choice, or a sovereign God.

Joseph Botwinick [/QUOTE]


No, I'm not a universalist. I don't believe everyone will be saved. I believe that only those that are convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit are able to accept the free gift of Salvation, and I believe that those who reject the Holy Spirit's conviction will reject God's salvation and die in their sins and burn in Hell.

I believe it's God's will that ALL be saved, and that NONE should perish, but we have to repent of our sins and accept His free gift of salvation. When I repented of my sins at the age of 17 and accepted his gift of salvation, I made him the Lord of my life, and there is nothing I or anyone else can do to take me out of His sovereign hands.

You never answered my question, do you believe that God is the author of sin, and created Adam and Eve as a way of bringing sin into the world, or do you believe they made a choice to disobey God and sin in the garden?

 

So you are saying that God had created some who are not "elect of God" and therefore damned to hell, with no hope of salvation? Was Christ's death on the cross not enough to pay for their sins?</font>[/QUOTE]JGrubbs,

Are you a universalist? What about all the people who have died without Jesus so far? Was Christ's death on the cross enough to pay for their sins? It would seem to me that if you have a problem with the doctrine of the elect, then your problem is with the sovereign God and his word (the Bible), not with me.

I believe those who accept God's free gift of salvation become part of the elect, and those who in their "free will" reject the Holy Spirit and God's free gift of salvation don't become part of the elect. I believe that God already knows who will choose and who will reject, but he makes the same offer to everyone.

I also believe that God in his awseome forekowledge knows what would have happened had Adam and Eve chose to obed God and not sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Would you please share with us your salvation experience? I wonder who you are counting on for your salvation: your free will choice, or a sovereign God.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]No, I'm not a universalist. I don't believe everyone will be saved. I believe that only those that are convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit are able to accept the free gift of Salvation, and I believe that those who reject the Holy Spirit's conviction will reject God's salvation and die in their sins and burn in Hell.
[/QUOTE]

So, who are these people relying on for their salvation? By your theory, they are relying on God (giving them the conviction) and then on themselves (willingly recieveing the salvation). Calvinists believe salvation is totally from God and not of man.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I believe salvation is totally from God, but man must repent and "turn from their wicked ways" in order to accept Christ as their personaly Saviour. I believe that God knows what who will accept the gift, and who will reject it, and in his awesome knowledge that only He can have, knows will happen if someone accepts Christ, and what will happen if they reject Christ.

I believe Calvin created his doctrine as an attempt to better understand the mind of our sovereign God, which our human minds were never meant to fully understand.

 

Your Catholic doctrine of Free will work salvation makes it a work of God and man. You may not realize it, but you are relying on yourself to accept the salvation.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I don't consider what I explained to be as you say, the "Catholic doctrine of Free will work salvation". I have studied the whole TULIP doctrine, and have many Calvanist friends, we will have to agree to disagree on that issue.

You still haven't answered my question, do you believe that God is the author of sin, and created Adam and Eve as a way of bringing sin into the world, or do you believe they made a choice to disobey God and sin in the garden?

 

I did not answer your question because I do not know.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Who sent or allowed? That Satan attacked and tempted Job is clear, it is also clear that God is not responsible for the temptation that Satan brought against Job. This brings a huge question to the table, since God in all powerful, why doesn't He just destroy Satan and get it over with. He has not, but that does not make Him the author of Sin. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Bro Tony

 

Verse 2 explains verse 1, to be dead is to walk according to the course of this world... This does not infer that a person cannot make a choice to respond to God's call. Again, God calls man responds or resists.

Can you explain the word "whosoever" in John 3:16? If there are only the elect that can, whosoever is meaningless. Not only is it meaningless it is the height of cruelty to offer someone something that they can't possibly receive. We punish children for teasing others in such a way.

I know from the 5 point Calvinists perspective that anyone that does not buy into their way of thinking is Arminian. You all believe it is all or nothing. That you cannot see it any way but your own and only through the box of calvinistic theology does not mean you are right and others wrong.

Bro Tony