hearers/doers

By "education" I do not necessarily mean seminary. I mean the process by which the humble student has set himself under people who God has gifted to teach and that student has also sought the counsel of a multitude of such gifted men (or women for that matter) and that student is using that training in his rigorous personal pursuit of the knowledge of God from the Word of God.

 

And who around here says we should not seek to grow in our knowledge. Are you saying that the only way to grow in this "knowledge" is to have a mentor? Do you not think that most here in BB do a fair amount of reading both in the Word and writers of books and commentaries etc.

 

I am not speaking just about bb.

But since you mention it, Winman has said in the past that he does not need anyone to teach him anything about Scripture because he has the Holy Spirit.

Now he has been on my ignore list for some time so he might be singing a different tune these days, but it is EXACTLY that kind of attitude and that ignorance that I am condemning vociferously.

 

For further clarification:

You ought to be a bible scholar if at all possible and you ought to keep silent on matters on which you have no real understanding.

A Bible scholar is one who makes it his life's ambition to study the Word of God and to know what it is actually saying and thereby to come to know the Author of it as well as possible.

You, if you are a Christian, should be a Bible scholar- if you are not you need to repent.

By "education" I do not necessarily mean seminary. I mean the process by which the humble student has set himself under people who God has gifted to teach and that student has also sought the counsel of a multitude of such gifted men (or women for that matter) and that student is using that training in his rigorous personal pursuit of the knowledge of God from the Word of God.

 

I may be incorrect, but I would guess that the stance of Winman was a visceral reaction to interpreting some of your comments on the matter. I would bet that Winman does indeed read and study the Word as well as reading authors and writers et al.

 

Thank you for the clarification.

 

There is no doubt that he reads some off the wall websites and such. I have seen him reference them on here.

But in our many exchanges it was my experience that the people he references are THEMSELVES guilty of what I am condemning.

I am saying that this lack of education coupled with the arrogance to spill forth authoritative commentary on matters of inestimable import has given rise to entire movements which are either heretical themselves or not far from it.

Mormons, JW's, KJVOers imo, many baptist fundamentalist circles (not all IFB's), United Pentecostals just to name a few.

 

If there's something I'm not sure of, I will say "I don't know". But there are things which you and I disagree on (Calvinism) and we are both positive that we're right. What do we do about that? Should you and I both keep silent about it? Or just me?

That is most definitely my life's ambition. I read and study everyday and desire to know God and know how He wants me to live and try hard to obey Him.

Based on your definition of bible scholar, then I am one.

I get my "education" from my pastor, my SS teacher, and highly respected theologians ranging from 100 yrs ago to present day, the Holy Spirit and the scriptures.

I disagree. The founders of these cults were probably well studied in the scriptures. They just didn't believe them.

 

double post

 

Thinking I “ought” not speak or get started about the subjective opinions concerning “real” understanding going around here on “who” should take their own advice about being silent. :BangHead:

 

For a fellow on your ignore list, I sure get a lot of attention from you.

1 Jn 2:15 But the annointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same annointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

This verse says the Holy Spirit teaches us ALL THINGS and that we need not that ANY MAN teach us. You deny this by implying a man needs to study scholars. This verse also teaches that the Holy Spirit is truth, and is no lie. The problem with studying scholars is that you do not know when they are teaching the truth or not, often they are not. The ONLY way you can know if they are teaching truth is to compare their writings to the scriptures, so you are back to square one.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We are told to study, but we are to study the word of truth, the scriptures, not the doctrines of men.

 

Hey Winman, you can study under me. According to Luke, I'm a scholar. :thumbsup:

 

It would be a pleasure!

I am not saying I never read theologians or listen to pastors, I do. But the standard is the scriptures, if what they teach does not line up with scripture, I do not listen to them.

 

I think it is essential that one who speaks out on a matter of great import (theology in this case) be well educated on it.

I think it is very great wickedness to speak out on such matters without such education.

I think valid education consists of a humble and hungry learner sitting at the feet (figuratively) of men far wiser than himself who have been gifted by God (it is their spiritual gift) to teach. Those teachers themselves should have received such an education as well and so should their teachers, etc... I think such education consists further of that learner submitting his learning to a multitude of counselors that span a broad horizon of Church History to see if it stands this very valuable test.

A matter as immensely important as whether or not God is truly Sovereign and always fulfills his purposes as he has always intended in every event that ever transpires is such a matter of import.

If you are satisfied that your authoritative proclamations that you have made concerning this inestimably important matter meet the above qualifications of education, then I will not condemn them outright.

I honestly do not doubt this.

If your pastor and SS teachers are highly qualified educators with the spiritual gift to teach- if they themselves have a solid grasp on theology and church history- if their teachings agree with a multitude of godly Christian scholars who span the breadth of church history- then such an "education" might indeed be valid.

I would read more than just those who have written in the last 100 years though.

Interestingly it is within the last 100 years that this what I often and purposefully refer to as "nameless theology" was born.

Respectfully, that may be why you are, imo, off on these great doctrines.

This is absolutely wrong.

There is no way that the founders of these cults submitted their ideas to a multitude of godly teachers- no way.

Joseph Smith for example never even CLAIMED to have done such.

And Pentecostalism was founded by a very uneducated black man at the Asuza Street Revival.

And KJVO is a new doctrine that COULD NOT have been submitted to the scrutiny of a multitude of godly scholars which span Christian history.

 

Winman, I am not quite sure of the meaning (entirely) of this passage, I do agree in principle that we "know" and "understand" things through the agency of the Holy Spirit, but I am sure that we should take its meaning to not seek out those who have studied (in professional depth) the Word.

 

First, to quote your exact words, and then to show you the error of your ways is not wickedness.
Second, to call my attitude (an assumption because you don't know it), wickedness, is wickedness in and of itself.
Thirdly, you were the one that set out the different categories, pulpit, and other areas of life. Thus to put a yolk on a believer that he must be a scholar just to witness to his neighbor is absurd, and the work of the Lord would never get done.

Any believer is allowed to express their opinion right or wrong. As Baptists we have soul liberty. Both in Canada and in America we have freedom of religion. Do you deny this to others only because others are not "scholars." You not only go against your own Baptist beliefs, you go against a constitution which guarantees freedom of religion to every citizen. Usually on this board, an incorrect opinion is either debated or corrected. If everyone were correct there would be nothing to debate would there?

You haven't been on the Other Christian Denom. Forum recently have you? :laugh: Check out: They are coming to earth soon. It only made it to two pages in length.

I said what I said because I quoted you word for word and answered you accordingly. I have since read how you define a "scholar," far from the dictionary meaning of "scholar," and if you choose to change the meanings of words that is your problem. In reference to theology that is what neo-orthodox does. Pick and choose; pick and choose. Redefine. If you don't like the actual definition make one up that fits your own liking.

Scholar: "A person who is highly educated; one who has an aptitude for study."
Not every Christian is highly educated, nor do they all have an aptitude for study. In fact in some nations I have been to some have an illiteracy rate of over 75% and higher among the Christians since they are the ones living far below the poverty line.

I am focused on what you said. Notice that Amy was shocked at what you said as well, until you redefined the word "scholar" according to your own liking. Only then was she placated.

It was my testimony compared to what you had posted. Let's go through it point by point.
1. I was able to witness--tell others about Christ, with little knowledge of the Bible. As you said, "not just behind the pulpit." And I wasn't a scholar.
2. The ones that led me to Christ were new believers as well.
3. In Acts 8:4 the entire church of Jerusalem was scattered and went everywhere preaching the word. In essence they were all new believers, and none of them fell into the category of scholars. They didn't have time to be scholars. Persecution set in too quickly.

How can I not be on topic when I am quoting your words and answering your post??
You arrogantly stated that we should all remain silent until we are scholars. Is this really true. Let's shut down Christianity, and let Islam take over. That is what it sounds like you are suggesting. If you stick to the dictionary definition of "scholar" then there will be very few who will be permitted to open their mouths and speak for Christ.

I am glad we can make the same point on the same verse.
God uses the foolish people, the simple people of the world, not the wise and scholarly. Perhaps you need to read it in a couple more translations.

 

Quantum, who do you study? There are probably thousands of theological books written by Calvinists, probably tens of thousands by Catholics. Is this how a person determines correct scriptural doctrine?

This seems (to me) how Luke determines what is correct, whoever writes the most books wins.

But the scriptures teach that in the last days men will gather to themselves teachers who teach them what they want to hear.

The only safe and reliable way to know correct doctrine is study scripture with an honest heart and ask God to help you know the truth and avoid error. And I happen to believe God will help those that truly seek the truth.

I am not saying we shouldn't listen to others, but we should carefully weigh their teachings against the word of God.

Luke's standard is the writings of men (nearly all Reformed), mine is the scriptures.

You are always going to encounter extreme nut cases like Joseph Smith, but no one who knew much scripture would fall for his error. The scriptures are our safeguard against the errors of men.

 

I did not read this whole post.

I read the first few lines and figured there was no point.

As long as you are going to misrepresent what I am saying then you will continue to talk past me rather than with me.

I did not say that one cannot share what he DOES understand.

And if you will peruse the posts above you will see what I mean by "scholar" and "education". It does match the definition you give for scholar and, yes, EVERY Christian who is at all able is DUTY BOUND to become a Bible Scholar.

I was relatively clear about this from the start but I offered even more clarification to keep you from doing the very thing you are doing in what little I ahve read of your post.

 

My favorite writers are many and varied. Geisler, William Lane Craig, Christopher JH Wright are the most recent items I have read or currently reading. My real passion is preparing myself to defend the christian faith and theism in general in the context of agnostics and athiests who populate the so called elite intelligencia .

 

Col 2:8
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.