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Hebrews 12:22-23

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Oct 5, 2019.

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  1. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    So the verse where names are added, or think and read post#39
     
    #41 loDebar, Oct 7, 2019
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    ... "the book of life" is the book of life.

    Are they 'alive'? Then, they are not "blotted out", as in, they are not dead.
    ...

    The Lamb's Book of Life involves The Lamb.

    What quality of 'Life' is associated with 'The Lamb'?

    Eternal Life.

    Chosen in Him before The Foundation of The World.

    With Loving Kindness Have I Loved you, I Have Loved you with an Everlasting Love.

    The Lamb's Book of Eternal Life was Written in Eternity Past.
     
    #42 Alan Gross, Oct 7, 2019
  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The Book was written before time, The Lamb's Book of Life is the same Book, It is dangerous to derive doctrine from translations.

    All those created as spiritual beings are in the Lamb's Book of Life. Our names are removed when we reject His patron and we proceed to lake of fire for eternal death
     
    #43 loDebar, Oct 7, 2019
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No.
    Names are in the book prior. When one is born from God, the promise is to never blot one's name from the book. 1 John 5:4; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 21:7.

    The text need not be interpreted that way. It says not written. It does not say never written, which is how in English you are intrepreting the text.

    ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.
     
    #44 37818, Oct 7, 2019
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  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    LOL, and here, so is yours.
     
    #45 37818, Oct 7, 2019
  6. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Please clarify your position.

    When are the names written in the Lamb's book of life?

    When are the names enrolled in heaven?

    Are there two books?
     
    #46 InTheLight, Oct 7, 2019
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Van

    one did not avoid the draft. One was enrolled, and then called up when needed. Deferments were given, but such did not remove the drafting ability.

    The Father has made choice upon His own pleasure of who He will give to Christ. Christ states "all the Father gives me will come to me."

    The draft was not a choice, and neither is it in the humankind ability to chose from the position of unrighteousness that which is righteous.

    The unclean can never make the unclean clean.

    Your attempt to use Hebrews is just not valid.

    But at least you admit that names were written from the foundation. Now, how you take that is certainly under contention. In the past you used it as a springboard to depart from the presentation of Scriptures. Wait to see if that is still true.
     
    #47 agedman, Oct 7, 2019
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Agree! It should be noted that neither can been seen with the eye nor touched with the hand, i.e. IT'S SPIRITUAL:

    20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Lu 17

    18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, Heb 12

    Before one can enter into it or even 'see' it they must first be born from above:

    3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
    5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
    7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3

    26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all, Gal 4
     
    #48 kyredneck, Oct 7, 2019
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  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Scripture proof?
     
    #49 agedman, Oct 7, 2019
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Not in dispute
     
    #50 Van, Oct 8, 2019
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Please, to claims the Lamb's book of life is empty with no names written since the foundation of the world is novel, however, no sale.
     
    #51 Van, Oct 8, 2019
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    "by inference other names were written" does not say "never written." More deflection
    Two of the three verses do not indicate names written or not written. Deflection
    The view in dispute is that since the election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, no names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world.
     
    #52 Van, Oct 8, 2019
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    More deflection, with no on topic content.
     
    #53 Van, Oct 8, 2019
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Names are written in the Lamb's book of life since the foundation of the world, not before. Revelation 13:8

    When names are written in the Lamb's book of life, the people are enrolled in heaven. I believe same book.

    Since those who are enrolled in heaven have been made perfect, the names are written when the individual was transferred into Christ, also termed "put in Christ" and "baptized into Christ." Thus when born anew.
     
    #54 Van, Oct 8, 2019
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Stop wasting time with absurdity.

    The Father gives individuals to Christ (sets them apart in Christ" when He and He alone credits their faith in Christ as righteousness.

    Pay no attention to posters who ascribe ungodly behavior to others. They hinder edification.
     
    #55 Van, Oct 8, 2019
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Asked and answered. Note all the naysayers post from the same deflection play book.
     
    #56 Van, Oct 8, 2019
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Lets go over the OP passage again:

    22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

    1) Where are we? In the heavenly Jerusalem, where the church of the first born is located made up of the "spirits of the righteous made perfect."

    2) What is the status of those spirits? They have been made perfect, thus put in Christ, regenerated, and born anew. These spirits have been enrolled in heaven. Thus they were not enrolled before they were made perfect, before being born anew, before being put in Christ, as part of the bride and body of Christ. OTOH, they have been made alive together with Christ, and therefore belong in the Lamb's book of life.

    3) Some claim the spirits might have been enrolled before they became members of the church of the firstborn. But that is an absurd and unnatural interpretation. When people are enrolled in something, they are members of that something, a group, church or whatever.

    4) Why have so many objected to this mainstream view of the passage? Either they want to claim the OT book of the living (Psalms 69:28) is the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 3:5, 21:27). or they want to claim names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world, specifically precluded by Revelation 13:8 and 17:8.
     
    #57 Van, Oct 8, 2019
  18. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    That is a grammatical impossibility in Rev 13:8 according to the word order you have embraced.

    γέγραπται (written) is not an on going action. It is a completed action with ongoing effects that are still felt. The writing is done. When was it done in relation to the "foundation of the cosmos"? By linking the verb to the previous mentioned phrase, which you have done, you must go with "before". The perfect tense conveys it occurred in the past.... if you allow Απο to connect οὗ οὐ γέγραπται and καταβολῆς κόσμου, the time relationship is past tense. The writing is in the past. You cannot isolate words from context. It doesn't matter what gloss you choose for από, context is king. The tense of the verb controls the time, not the preposition.

    You have yet to exegete the Hebrews passage to show us how it shows when the names where written. You offered an analogy and then read that into scripture. That is a poor hermeneutic.


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    #58 McCree79, Oct 8, 2019
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Why is it you make grammatical claims that somehow Dr. Wallace misses?

    NET version
    13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world27 in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

    Footnote #27: The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.

    The verb translated "written" is in the perfect tense.
    "The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. " Therefore the completed action, names written in the Lamb's book of life, can still be found in the book at the present time, which is set at the end of the age.

    So when was the action completed according to grammar? Up to the end of the age. And at that time all the names will have been written as a completed action, with continuing effect, everyone's name will be found in the book that had been written in the book.
     
    #59 Van, Oct 8, 2019
  20. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Wallace didn't disagree with me. You failed to grasp what he is saying. I never objected to your word order. Look at the definition of pefert tense he has given and how he applied it. He is objecting to your stance. The writing is already completed. The names are still there. There are not names being added. The quote you posted make that clear. You just posted Wallace who objects to you allowing "written" to have a future tense. All the names are already there.

    We accept your surrender ;)


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    #60 McCree79, Oct 8, 2019
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