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Featured Hell is finite - not Infinite torment for a sin

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Nov 28, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the world-wide lake of fire starts up until the 1000 years are ended in Rev 20.

    So whatever "lake of fire" there was in Rev 19 that is associated with the 2nd coming is all they have to put the "Beast, and the false prophet".

    As you pointed out before tormenting them can take time - but is it eternally unfished and eternally never-paid? That is what is missing from many of the Bible texts we have been looking at. It appears that at some point it is finished. Yet still - the wicked do not survive it. They are destroyed "both body and soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #21 BobRyan, Nov 28, 2013
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Give me a break, Rev 19:20 says the lake of fire is "burning".

    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Satan is not cast into the lake of fire until at least one thousand later, and the beast and false prophet are still there.

    Just admit you are wrong.
     
    #22 Winman, Nov 28, 2013
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Didn't I just say that?

    In Rev 20 the wicked surround the saints - the city of God -- on the earth - but then God rains fire and brimstone on them. And stating this in more detail - they are judged first and "THEN" they are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

    Thus it does not exist in global form until after the wicked have surrounded the city of God on the earth.

    But it does exist in some form on earth because it starts in Rev 19 -- 1000 years prior to the events that follow Rev 20's - second resurrection.
    2 And he took the dragon that old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, and he bound him a thousand years:
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and he shut him up, and sealed the door upon him, that he should deceive the people no more till the thousand years were fulfilled: for after that he must be loosed for a little season.
    4 And I saw seats: and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them, and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which did not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had taken his mark upon their foreheads or on their hands: and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead men shall not live again, until the thousand years be finished: this is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he, that hath part in the first resurrection: for on such the second death hath no power: but they shall be the Priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the people, which are in the four quarters of the earth: even Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the Sea.


    9 And they went up into the plain of the earth, and they compassed the tents of the Saints about, and the beloved city: but fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    10 And the devil that deceived them, was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, where that beast and that false prophet are, and shall be tormented even day and night for evermore.




    11 And I saw a great white throne, and one that sat on it, from whose face fled away both the earth and heaven, and their place was no more found.
    12 And I saw the dead, both great and small stand before God: and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged of those things, which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up her dead, which were in her, and death and hell delivered up the dead, which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death, and hell were cast into the lake of fire: this is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire.





    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #23 BobRyan, Nov 28, 2013
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  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Mat 18 implies that the forgiven believer was only tormented for a time until his debt was paid, that is why I personally do not believe it was speaking of hell.

    But Rev 20 says Satan, the beast, and false prophet will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Now perhaps you can understand why I don't believe Mat 18 is speaking of hell.
     
    #24 Winman, Nov 28, 2013
  5. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Mr Ryan is so out of touch with the reality of Scripture, he allows us to agree. It is quite clear, and we need no other verses, that Revelation states that Satan, the Anti-Christ, the False Prophet, and all those without Jesus Christ were cast into the Lake of Fire that burns forever and ever.

    In his next thread, Mr. Ryan is going to argue that Jesus sold life insurance during His eighteen year period of silence in Scripture.
     
    #25 saturneptune, Nov 29, 2013
  6. prophet

    prophet Active Member
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    Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
     
    #26 prophet, Nov 29, 2013
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    According to Revelation 20:10 Satan will be around forever. He may be in the Lake of Fire, but he will not be annihilated. He will still be there. All who are not saved by faith and faith alone will join him there, forever and ever, for all eternity.
    And the fire will never be quenched--no not ever, and ever and ever. Not for all eternity which is never ending.
    You need to know something about this word that you misuse. Let me quote the recognized lexicographical scholar, Thayer, on this subject:
    You confine yourself to only one definition which is used sparingly--to abolish, put an end to ruin. But that is not the only definition of this word.
    In Mat.10:28 the definition is the next one (1b), "to render useless."
    In spiritual matters the person will be rendered useless. He will live, but apart from God. He will be of no use to God, and will be forever tormented in the Lake of fire according to Rev.20:10,15.
    The definition, 1e also fits perfectly well: "metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell."
    You don't have the key to the dictionary Bob. There are the definitions. You don't get to pick and choose according to the theology of EGW. The definition is according to context and according to the teaching of the rest of the Bible.
    Good example of continuous punishment that will never end.
    And they will. There are degrees of punishment in hell/Lake of Fire.
    This is a parable Bob. You are forcing doctrine out of a parable.
    The Scripture is not in the present tense. It is in the past. He has paid for all our sins. He has shed his blood for us. He has made an atonement for out sins. It is not on-going. He said: "It is finished." That was 2,000 years ago. The penalty had been paid. If one has not put their faith in that sacrificial lamb and the prices that WAS paid on the cross there is no way that he can be saved. It is faith and faith alone in sacrificial blood of Christ that WAS shed on the cross in payment for our sins (past, present and future) that gives us forgiveness of sins, and salvation forevermore.
     
    #27 DHK, Nov 29, 2013
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I agree - he is tormented until his debt is paid. Turns out it is a debt that would take ten lifetimes. And as Matt 10:28 states - the wicked do not survive it for it is in fiery hell that "God destroys BOTH body and soul" - regardless of the length of time spent in the "striptes" Is 53 phase of it.

    Since we have no other choice like Purgatory - as both you and I know - then this is certainly the payment of the wicked. Paying for their debt of sin.

    There are Bible texts to address the issue with Rev 20:10 and the Devil, the beast and the false prophet. But if you prefer to just stick with these 3 in eternal torment - fine.

    They are pretty unusual.

    Rev 16
    13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

    As for the wicked humans -- Matt 10:28 says they are destroyed "both body AND soul in fiery hell". And Luke 12:45-47 says their punishment in stripes is proportional to what they knew to be right.

    And as you point out in Matt 18 - the punishment in stripes and torment - is finite.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #28 BobRyan, Nov 29, 2013
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  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Though the worms and fire be immortal in some interpretations - in all cases it certainly does not say "where their soul does not die" nor does it say "where their soul cannot be destroyed".

    For in Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul - but rather fear him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".
     
    #29 BobRyan, Nov 29, 2013
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Jude 7 says Soddom and Gomorrah are examples of undergoing the punishment of "Eternal fire".

    For once we agree on something. (Seems to be happening more these days).

    Sodom and Gomorrah are good "examples" of the punishment of eternal fire. And can be visited any time you have some time and a visa to visit.

    Jude 1:7
    7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    2 Peter 2:6
    6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #30 BobRyan, Nov 29, 2013
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  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=&quot]Matt 10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    28 ""Do not fear those [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]who kill the body[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but are unable to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]kill the soul[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; but rather fear Him who is able to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]destroy both[/FONT][FONT=&quot] soul and body [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 12[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]who kill the body[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]after that[/FONT][FONT=&quot] have [/FONT][FONT=&quot]no more[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that they can do.
    5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; yes, I tell you, fear Him![/FONT]



    The text applies this to Sodom and Gomorrah - and you already agreed they are examples of the real deal - the punishment of eternal fire.


    Luke 17:29
    [FONT=&quot]but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]destroyed[/FONT][FONT=&quot] them all. (destroy - Apollumi )[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Jude [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and the cities around them[/FONT][FONT=&quot], since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are [/FONT][FONT=&quot]exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]2 Peter 2:6[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]and if He[/FONT][FONT=&quot] condemned the cities[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of Sodom and Gomorrah to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]destruction by reducing them to ashes[/FONT][FONT=&quot], having [/FONT][FONT=&quot]made them an example[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;[/FONT]


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #31 BobRyan, Nov 29, 2013
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  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 John 2:2 - Christ is the "Atoning sacrifice for our SINS and not for OUR sins only but for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD"

    err...ummm.. "yes".

    That is the Arminian view - I think Calvinists accept that it is in the past as well.


    Indeed.

    Are you simply trying to find more ground for agreement? If so - you are doing well on this one.


    True - no purgatory or afterlife for reversing one's decision.

    God "foreknows all" every sin you would ever commit. He can place the accumulated penalty for every sin of every person in all of time on Christ - who then pays that debt in full.

    He took the punishment "for US to whom the STROKE was due" Isaiah 53.


    Indeed - but we cannot toss our Bible's out the window so whatever God says to the SAVED saints - we have to listen to - all the same. EVEN if what He says comes in the form of a warning.

    We cannot "game the text" and insist that God is not allowed to issue this or that sort of warning to the saints, because we have "redefined" salvation in such a way that supposedly all of God's thunderings and warnings are meaningless and not even possible.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #32 BobRyan, Nov 29, 2013
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    same word used to describe eternal/ternity for heaven used and applied for hell, an Age of non ending going forever!

    Jesus said hell would be outer darkness, where sinners suffer forever....

    just as saints are forever saved and in heaven, lost forever lost in hell...

    might not like it, but that is what God says about it!
     
    #33 Yeshua1, Nov 29, 2013
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Context is everything.

    Sodom and Gomorrah - and the wicked at the end of the age are destroyed by "eternal fire" - it is the fire "from God" - "Our God is a CONSUMING Fire"


    Hebrews 12:28-29

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.





    Luke 17:29
    [FONT=&quot]but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]destroyed[/FONT][FONT=&quot] them all. (destroy - Apollumi )[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Jude [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and the cities around them[/FONT][FONT=&quot], since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are [/FONT][FONT=&quot]exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]2 Peter 2:6[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]and if He[/FONT][FONT=&quot] condemned the cities[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of Sodom and Gomorrah to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]destruction by reducing them to ashes[/FONT][FONT=&quot], having [/FONT][FONT=&quot]made them an example[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;[/FONT]
     
    #34 BobRyan, Nov 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2013
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    --Set forth as an example suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    In order to suffer one must have a soul. He must be a person. It will be the entire person that will be there.
    There is a resurrection of the just and of the unjust. What happens at the resurrection of the unjust? What is resurrected? Who stands before the Great White Throne of God?
    All the unsaved do, and they do so in a resurrected body--a body with a soul that will be cast into outer darkness, eternal fire, the Lake of fire, suffering torment forever and ever.

    Read on from Jude 7
    Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
    --The fate of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were an example.
    Verse 8 says "Likewise..." and speaks of the present false teachers.

    Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
    --These present false teachers; their fate is "the blackness of darkness forever--eternally--tormented: body and soul.
     
    #35 DHK, Nov 30, 2013
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Careful -- we are getting close to agreement on this one again.

    I agree "again".

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    28 ""Do not fear those [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]who kill the body[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but are unable to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]kill the soul[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; but rather fear Him who is able to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]destroy both[/FONT][FONT=&quot] soul and body [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 12[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]who kill the body[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]after that[/FONT][FONT=&quot] have [/FONT][FONT=&quot]no more[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that they can do.
    5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; yes, I tell you, fear Him![/FONT]

    Bodily resurrection - the "2nd resurrection" which is the one after the 1000 years in Rev 20 - the "first resurrection" is that of the righteous the holy one - over whom the "second death has no power" according to Rev 20.

    So the wicked come up in the 2nd resurrection.


    the wicked.

    Agreed again.

    Which is why I keep quoting this -

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    28 ""Do not fear those [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]who kill the body[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but are unable to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]kill the soul[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; but rather fear Him who is able to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]destroy both[/FONT][FONT=&quot] soul and body [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell)[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    Just as Sodom and Gomorrah - reduced to ashes.. .destroyed by eternal fire.



    Luke 17:29
    [FONT=&quot]but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]destroyed[/FONT][FONT=&quot] them all. (destroy - Apollumi )[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Jude [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and the cities around them[/FONT][FONT=&quot], since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are [/FONT][FONT=&quot]exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]2 Peter 2:6[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]and if He[/FONT][FONT=&quot] condemned the cities[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of Sodom and Gomorrah to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]destruction by reducing them to ashes[/FONT][FONT=&quot], having [/FONT][FONT=&quot]made them an example[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;[/FONT]


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #36 BobRyan, Nov 30, 2013
  17. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    And I've dealt with people like you.

    Ninety posts and already calling someone a heretic.

    Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the original meaning of "aion". A large segment of the early church would have considered you a heretic, but in that day a heretic was merely someone who held a minority opinion, not someone destined for hell if they don't change, which is how many define "heretic" today.
     
    #37 Thomas Helwys, Nov 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2013
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Let me ask you a question. This just happened to me a couple days ago.
    I was sitting here enjoying a cup of coffee. After a couple of hours I decided to have another one. I prepared everything (standard drip coffee maker), and flipped the on switch. It turned red indicating power but no coffee was dripping into the carafe. It had finally dripped its last drop. It seems that heating element is "destroyed," or not working any longer. Thus the entire coffee maker is useless, rendered inoperable or "destroyed."

    This is the proper use of the Greek word for "destroy" in Matthew 10:28.
    Do you agree with that?

    That is what the Lexicon says.
    It is not annihilation. Destruction is simply to render inoperable just like my coffee maker (I had to buy a new one). Nowhere in the context of that verse does "destroy" necessitate a meaning of annihilation.
     
    #38 DHK, Dec 1, 2013
  19. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    No water in Hell

    Luke 16:19 starts an interesting description of death(separation from the body) and death(separation from God). There is no purgatory or sale of indulgences mentioned. The separation is permanent, yet death is not destruction of the spirit.

    Hell is real, hot and forever.

    Jesus paid it all--today is the day of salvation.

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
    #39 Bro. James, Dec 1, 2013
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Destroyed means that their physical bodies were consumed, burned up, but they still remained alive, awaiting judgement of God in the Gwt TIME TO YET COME!

    SATAN/BEAST/FALSE PROPHET CAST INTO THE fIRE OF HELL, AND THEIR SUFFERING IS FOREVER...

    what is there to indicate a limiting, as esus Himself said that he will raise all people in end day, some to everlasting life, others to everlasting torment and judgement!

    ALL live forever, just depends where they spead it at!

    And IF hellis just burning up and gone...

    WHERE would hilter and stalin be as getting punished by God, as they would suffer same fate for same time as someone who rejected jesus, yet was morally upright?
     
    #40 Yeshua1, Dec 2, 2013
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