No, you are conflating two different doctrines here. Purgatory, to an English speaking Catholic, is not hell. In fact, John Paul II went so far to say that those in Purgatory are those who "in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house. Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude."
Hell, on the other hand, is not Purgatory but the infinite playing out of the choices people have made in temporal existence.
"This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell.'
"'Eternal damnation', therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God's judgement ratifies this state."
Hell: Which View is The Bible One?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AndyMartin, May 10, 2017.
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Eternal: קדם (qedem) Before time.
Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
Eternal: עולם (‛ôlâm) Time unthinkable (out of mind)
Eternal: αιωνιον (aiōnion) Perpetual
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Eternal: αιδιος (aidios) Everduring (everlasting). -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I think it is also important to consider Isaiah 66 (previously quoted) where the wicked are corpses and being consumed by worms and fire, and Malachi 4:1-3
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.
If the wicked are ashes underfoot, they are not being eternally tormented.
You seem to think that the eternal destruction of life is not great loss. I think it is dreadful. I know many people who are terrified of death because they do not believe in the promise and Person of Jesus. You may be callous to it, but I am in contact with people every day who do everything they can to avoid dying because they can barely deal with their fear of not existing.
I came to this position over the course of about 20 years, simply paying attention to what the scripture teaches (and doesn't teach) after being struck by the plain assertion in Revelation 20:14 that the lake of fire is "the second death." That got me thinking about whether or not the death continued to be conscious in the lake of fire. I thought I would be able to answer that easily. I could find no real evidence for it that didn't eventually fail. About five years ago I decided that I could not be faithful to the scripture and assert that the unredeemed face eternal conscious torment. Shortly after that time, I found "Rethinking Hell" and realized that it was a helpful resource in explaining the position that I had already discovered on my own.
I encourage you to be faithful to scripture and seriously study the issue. Since you raised the question, you obviously have some interest. Perhaps the Spirit is prodding you to reconsider your beliefs. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
My assertion is that those who are cast into the lake of fire eventually perish in an eternal sense. It is truly the "second death" (Revelation 20:14). -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I'm not a Greek scholar myself, but I am comfortable with the language tools. I too am open to correction. -
Scripture reveals knowledge about ALL of Gods creations, however ALL Scripture does not apply to ALL of Gods creations. When one is attempting to APPLY what is NOT APPLICABLE, the understanding thereof is moot.
Eternal punishment for who? Mankind or Angelic hosts?
Angelic hosts that are fallen, are spirits and do not die, but do exist forever in tormenting flame separated from God.
Rev 14
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
"The smoke" of "their" (fallen spirit beings who never die) torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.
and "they" (fallen angels) have no rest day nor night, "WHO" (fallen angels) worship the beast and his image.
and (additionally in application to mankind) "WHOSOEVER" (mankind) who recieveth the mark of his name......WHAT about them?
Scripture already tells us about humans WHO reject God. They do not receive an eternal living spirit. (ie born again) Their soul does not become restored (ie saved). Their body does not become sanctified and justified to be raised and changed. They shall drink of the cup of Gods WRATH and become tormented in the PRESENCE of...
Rev 14
[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
The holy angels and the Lamb do not remain in hell, thus he (mankind) is not continuously tormented with fire and brimstone.
AFTER judgement all life of the (unrestored) man shall return to God (since ALL life belong to Him who IS Life) and the body's and souls of those humans in standing against God, shall have their body's and souls DESTROYED in the lake of fire. (not eternally existing as with "spirits"...but as scripture says, destroyed). -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Now I don't think Lordship Salvation position is a complete gospel, but if my only two choices are the Lordship Salvation position or the Free Grace position, I am unreservedly in the Lordship Salvation camp.
But both of those positions focus only on what it takes to deal with sin, not the bigger question of the Kingdom of God. The true "gospel according to Jesus" is the gospel of the Kingdom ("Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand."). I maintain that it is something beyond what MacArthur focuses on.
Apparently you can't tell the difference between the way of the Master (Jesus) and the "Way of the Master" evangelism method. Because I walk in the way of Jesus, I need to reject the falsely named, "Way of the Master" evangelism method. -
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Matthew 25:64
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Here we have in the same verse, the Greek "αἰώνιος" (eternal) used for both, "punishment", for the wicked, and "life", for the righteous. There can be no doubt that both the uses of "αἰώνιος" are the same in their meaning here. If we were to place a limit on the "duration" of the former use, then we must do also for the latter. I know of no Scripture which says that the time the saved spend with God, will be limited in any way. That it will be "without end", is taught in many places in the Bible. In which case, for the purpose of doing justice to what Jesus says here, and to a correct understanding of the words, it is only right that we conclude that both uses of "αἰώνιος" have the same force, "without end". Only those who wish to argue for their own thinking, and not agree with what the Bible teaches, will still contend for a difference in meaning. These should be ignored as divisive.
However, I think that there could be a problem in how we are to understand the meaning of the word "punishment" as used here. The Greek is "κόλασις", which, according to the definitions given in our standard Greek lexical authorities, denotes, "chastisement, correction, penalty", with also the meaning of "punish". In 2 Peter 2:9, the Greek "κολάζω" which has the meaning, "chastisement, correction", as well as "divine retribution, punish". Again, the meanings of the words suit both those who hold to "eternal punishment", as in "without end"; and those who reject the wicked will "suffer forever".
I am interested in feedback on this. thanks -
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When we look at the nature of Hell (a temporary “punishment” verses an eternal state of judgment) what are the reasons that color our interpretation in rejecting the other position?
I don’t understand the logic of punishing someone with such a severe torment and then destroying them. This seems to serve no sense of justness at all. Likewise, mere destruction does not seem to address the will of men in active rebellion against God (the lost are not mistakes to be scrapped, but living souls that freely chose to rebel against their Creator). But if I look at Hell as centered on God, rather than man, then I come out with a picture of Hell that is an expression of God’s judgment and one that must be eternal – not as a “punishment” but as a state of existence in consequence of sin. -
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Purgatory is to cleansed saved folks
Everyone in Purgatory will move from there to Heaven.
No one in Purgatory will ever go to Hell -
I think many people don't consider the difference between Time and Eternity
When we see the phrase forever and ever, we are thinking of time wandering endlessly
But I believe eternity is outside of time. eternity is "forever now" which we cannot fathom
I believe the torment of Hell will only last a moment, but it will be a moment that never ends -
I am saying that I believe Hell is best viewed as a consequence of sin rather than a punishment (in terms of a father punishing a child, or maybe even a court system punishing a criminal). I do believe it is an eternal torment (that the lost will be resurrected to an eternal death). But instead of looking at Hell as a punishment for the lost, I think to best to consider it God's judgment on sin. As such, I believe it must be of eternal duration (just as God's mercy and grace is of eternal duration). -
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